Twist rates for various calibers?

I need some help with deciding which direction to go. I am wanting to do some medium range work and learn something new. I have no experience shooting past 200yds and have decided to finally scratch the itch to do some "longer" shooting. Max range will be only 400/500yds. I want to stay with .223 for sure, however everything I find has a twist rate of 1/9. Will that twist work with the heavier bullets in the bolt gun? I'm not wanting to re-barrel from a factory gun to get the twist I need, if thats the case, I'll stick with my AR's. Thanks for the help guys!

1/7 & 1/8 are considered the prefered twist for what you want to do...

1/9 with 75gr & up is a crap shoot.

Thanks for the reply. Whats up with no one making the 1/7 twist standard for these? Oh well, appreciate the help!

1:9 will shoot 69gr bullets perfectly fine out to 400/500yds. Give them a try.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Quick Stick

Thanks for the reply. Whats up with no one making the 1/7 twist standard for these? Oh well, appreciate the help!

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Just my opinion....but it seems that manufacturers making .223 bolt guns do so with the intended purpose of varmit hunting. Typically a bullet weight of 40 to 50 grains is used for this....and the bullet velocity is notably faster than what the 75 to 90 grain bullets produce. As such, barrels with slower twist rates are put on these bolt action rifles.

I'm not claiming that any logic from the manufacturer is being applied here...but that is how it appears so me. Maybe someone else has an idea?

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Originally Posted by arizona98tj

Just my opinion....but it seems that manufacturers making .223 bolt guns do so with the intended purpose of varmit hunting. Typically a bullet weight of 40 to 50 grains is used for this....and the bullet velocity is notably faster than what the 75 to 90 grain bullets produce. As such, barrels with slower twist rates are put on these bolt action rifles.

I'm not claiming that any logic from the manufacturer is being applied here...but that is how it appears so me. Maybe someone else has an idea?

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I agree with your logic

If barrel length is 22-24", 1 in 9" might stabilize 75-77 grain bullets given the added velocity. If barrel is shorter, you need to look for 1 in 8" or quicker to be safe.

I'd pose this question at Sniperhide or 6mmBR.com to get an answer from folks who have probably plowed this ground before. Asking a predominantly carbine board won't get you much "hands on" advise.

I had a .223 700 LTR w/ 1n9 and it ran the 77 loads well. I don't recall the velocity on them but they were a tad warm. I have also had no problem with a Colt 20" 1n9 running 262 loads. Bottom line, it will depend on velocity, factors that come in are barrel quality and or wear. You stabilize anything in a sewer pipe if it goes fast enough.

I would suggest maybe picking up a stock 700 which will more than likely have a 1n9, try the heavier loads and the 68/69 ones. If it doesn't work well with the 75/77's use the lighter ones and rebarrel later on.

FN makes a .223 also, it's 1n9 as well. Both can be customized later with stock options, detachable mag kits, etc. Poke around the boards and you may find one for sale-you have to be quick at times though.

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Originally Posted by mark5pt56

I had a .223 700 LTR w/ 1n9 and it ran the 77 loads well. I don't recall the velocity on them but they were a tad warm. I have also had no problem with a Colt 20" 1n9 running 262 loads. Bottom line, it will depend on velocity, factors that come in are barrel quality and or wear. You stabilize anything in a sewer pipe if it goes fast enough.

I would suggest maybe picking up a stock 700 which will more than likely have a 1n9, try the heavier loads and the 68/69 ones. If it doesn't work well with the 75/77's use the lighter ones and rebarrel later on.

FN makes a .223 also, it's 1n9 as well. Both can be customized later with stock options, detachable mag kits, etc. Poke around the boards and you may find one for sale-you have to be quick at times though.

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Mark - For your 223 700 LTR 1/9 that you ran the 77 gr loads in, did it have the stock 20" barrel length? Or did you have a custom barrel installed (longer than 20")?

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Originally Posted by jmart

If barrel length is 22-24", 1 in 9" might stabilize 75-77 grain bullets given the added velocity. If barrel is shorter, you need to look for 1 in 8" or quicker to be safe.

I'd pose this question at Sniperhide or 6mmBR.com to get an answer from folks who have probably plowed this ground before. Asking a predominantly carbine board won't get you much "hands on" advise.

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My 1/9 twist Colt Accurized Rifle does great with 77 gr. However, it is a 24" barrel.

The Tikka T3 in .223 is a 1" in 8" twist FYI. Worth checking out if you have a stocking dealer near you. They are good shooters!

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Originally Posted by JW5219

The Tikka T3 in .223 is a 1" in 8" twist FYI. Worth checking out if you have a stocking dealer near you. They are good shooters!

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Just picked up a T3 Varmint in .223 yesterday, hopefully it will be here next week.

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Originally Posted by drck1000

Mark - For your 223 700 LTR 1/9 that you ran the 77 gr loads in, did it have the stock 20" barrel length? Or did you have a custom barrel installed (longer than 20")?

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It was a stock LTR w/20" factory barrel. I don't recall the load, was with Benchmark powder. Did try Varget and H4895, the Benchmark was more consistent and accurate for me.

I to have a stock 20" 700 LTR with 1-9" twist that stabilizes 75 and 77gr ammo just fine. I attended a Advanced LE Sniper Course last October and using 75gr Hornady factory Match ammo I consistently printed less than 1 MOA everytime out to 300yds which was the farthest we shot groups on paper. My train-up prior to the course also showed consistent 3/4" or less 5 shot grooups at 100yds with the factory 75gr Hornady. I also have used it with some Federal 77gr factory ammo at two 300yd F-Class matches and shot a 142 out of a possible 150 each time on a ten ring that was only 1 MOA. Plus every 75gr handload I have tried through it has printed less than 1 MOA at 100yds, using 5 shot groups.

Mt RRA 16" barrel 1-9" twist also shoots 75gr handloads just fine.

I say you wont know until you try it. A 1-8" or 1-7" will certainly be a safe bet but I havent had a problem with my 1-9" yet.

You can punch paper at 400 yds with a 50 gr V-Max out of a 1 in 12" twist. Wind is a factor, of course, but the prairie dogs die just fine. If your preferred bolt gun has a 1 in 9" twist, just work up a load with the 69 gr SMK and you'll buck the wind pretty well out to 500. The 1 in 7" twist is en vogue right now but the heavy bullets aren't really needed unles you're shooting hi-power or something, or if you have an SBR and want to be able to add weight to make up for velocity losses.

In regards to my post above below are some of my targets from my 700 LTR with 1-9" twist firing 75gr ammo.

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/g...shotgroups.jpg

I nominate this for a sticky. I have asked a similar question in the past, and did not get this quality of info. And this question gets asked often.

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Originally Posted by Polymerhead

You can punch paper at 400 yds with a 50 gr V-Max out of a 1 in 12" twist. Wind is a factor, of course, but the prairie dogs die just fine. If your preferred bolt gun has a 1 in 9" twist, just work up a load with the 69 gr SMK and you'll buck the wind pretty well out to 500. The 1 in 7" twist is en vogue right now but the heavy bullets aren't really needed unles you're shooting hi-power or something, or if you have an SBR and want to be able to add weight to make up for velocity losses.

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This is my question, I have a Remington 700 VLS that is a sweet shooter! But the twist is 1/12 or 12, it's fine with 55 grain but I want to step it up a bit. I have a Nikon BDC scope that goes to 500yds, longest I can do in Va is 300yd. Do the experts think a re-barreling is in order to step up to 600 yds?

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Originally Posted by Positive Displacement

This is my question, I have a Remington 700 VLS that is a sweet shooter! But the twist is 1/12 or 12, it's fine with 55 grain but I want to step it up a bit. I have a Nikon BDC scope that goes to 500yds, longest I can do in Va is 300yd. Do the experts think a re-barreling is in order to step up to 600 yds?

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Is the bullet key holing past 300 yards or oval hits? This will tell you if the bullet is being spun to slow.

If the bullet is spun to slow you will see key holing. To fast and the bullet will spin across the lands, shearing the bullet. To fast and you will see larger amounts of copper deposits in the barrel and larger groups down range. In your case you are not spinning the bullet to fast.

Due to air density the 223 has a very poor BC to begin with. Sorry, but the 223 was not designed to be a long range caliber. The environment exhibits a lot of havoc on the bullet once it leaves the barrel due to the 223 aerodynamic qualities.

Can longer ranges be achieved with the 223? Yes, but it will be more susceptible to the environment making it much more difficult to accurately hit.

The ideal range for the 223 is around the 300 - 400 yard mark. The 1:12 twist is fine for the caliber You can go to a faster twist to get to longer ranges but the 223 just does not have the BC to play at longer ranges consistently.

If you want to play out past 500 yards, accurately, I would say go to a larger caliber with a better BC.

I think not, in most situations your fine. 69 grains will get there. Don't have to have 77grainers. The twist rate, bullet weight thing are guidelines IMHO. The only proof is on the bullet.

Make sure you need a new barrel. If the barrel shoots for shit at 100, yes no harm in getting a new barrel. otherwise, let it rip and find out. Probably not.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/products...wist_rates.htm

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Originally Posted by The Surgeon

Is the bullet key holing past 300 yards or oval hits? This will tell you if the bullet is being spun to slow.

If the bullet is spun to slow you will see key holing. To fast and the bullet will spin across the lands, shearing the bullet. To fast and you will see larger amounts of copper deposits in the barrel and larger groups down range. In your case you are not spinning the bullet to fast.

Due to air density the 223 has a very poor BC to begin with. Sorry, but the 223 was not designed to be a long range caliber. The environment exhibits a lot of havoc on the bullet once it leaves the barrel due to the 223 aerodynamic qualities.

Can longer ranges be achieved with the 223? Yes, but it will be more susceptible to the environment making it much more difficult to accurately hit.

The ideal range for the 223 is around the 300 - 400 yard mark. The 1:12 twist is fine for the caliber You can go to a faster twist to get to longer ranges but the 223 just does not have the BC to play at longer ranges consistently.

If you want to play out past 500 yards, accurately, I would say go to a larger caliber with a better BC.

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I agree with the above, I would love to be able to go 600 yds. It's not key holed at 300 yds. Seems that with the investment though I could just step up to a .308. I really appreciate the response, I think my decision is made to just keep it stock.

Looking thru the info here i see nothing on the 300 win I have a 20in 1in 11 twist i shoot Premium 185 grain to 400 in a silver dollar grouping. on another site a guy out of texas recommends a 208 to 210 grain to reach out and drop my moa, any suggestion would be appreciated, leupold 9-32 with 50 mm optics.

I'd stick with 69's and quit worrying about it. You get better velocity and I can't tell much of a difference in drift when shooting steel. Good luck finding bullets, powder or ammo. I bought it all and buried it in my back yard.

There some interesting new theories out there on twist rates. Todd Hodnett thinks we should/can twist faster for the heavier bullets. I tend to agree. I just ordered a 1/8 twist barrel for my .308 for some heavy rounds. Will be an interesting test to say the least.

Be bold, order a barrel and see what it does.

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Originally Posted by BruceLeroy

I just ordered a 1/8 twist barrel for my .308 for some heavy rounds. Will be an interesting test to say the least.

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How heavy? :eek:

Good grief... A 1/11 will stabilize any reasonable length bullet for .308.

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Originally Posted by The Surgeon

Due to air density the 223 has a very poor BC to begin with. Sorry, but the 223 was not designed to be a long range caliber. The environment exhibits a lot of havoc on the bullet once it leaves the barrel due to the 223 aerodynamic qualities.

Can longer ranges be achieved with the 223? Yes, but it will be more susceptible to the environment making it much more difficult to accurately hit.

The ideal range for the 223 is around the 300 - 400 yard mark. The 1:12 twist is fine for the caliber You can go to a faster twist to get to longer ranges but the 223 just does not have the BC to play at longer ranges consistently.

If you want to play out past 500 yards, accurately, I would say go to a larger caliber with a better BC.

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This is complete nonsense.

Air density has absolutely nothing to do with the ballistic coefficient of a bullet.

Also, bullets of equal BC behave aerodynamically EXACTLY the same when they are launched at the same speed.

There are plenty of .224" match bullets in weights between 75 and 90 grains that have BCs between .435 and .480 that will absolutely run with any .308 at any distance.

This is no theory. I have plenty of personal experience sending .224" bullets into the 10 and X ring at 600 yards out of 20" ARs with 1/8 and 1/7 twists.

Savage 12FTR (Target Rifle Series) has a 1:7 twist rate. http://savagearms.com/firearms/models/

I have become a firm believer of faster twist rates, especially on shorter barrels. 1/8 is a good rate for 16" .308's.

It's a question of simple math why shorter barrels benefit from a faster twist rate to maintain stability despite their lower muzzle velocities.

A bullet needs a certain rotational velocity to remain stable thoughtout its flight.

I'm going to extremely oversimplify the physics because I am going to assume the bullet reaches full MV essentially as it leaves the cartridge.

In that case, the bullet's rotational velocity in revolutions/second is simply the product of the rifling rate (expressed in revolutions/inch) and muzzle velocity (in inches/second).

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Originally Posted by Quick Stick

I need some help with deciding which direction to go. I am wanting to do some medium range work and learn something new. I have no experience shooting past 200yds and have decided to finally scratch the itch to do some "longer" shooting. Max range will be only 400/500yds. I want to stay with .223 for sure, however everything I find has a twist rate of 1/9. Will that twist work with the heavier bullets in the bolt gun? I'm not wanting to re-barrel from a factory gun to get the twist I need, if thats the case, I'll stick with my AR's. Thanks for the help guys!

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I have a 223AI with a 1:8 that works quite well at 600Meters with the 77gr SMK

What twist rate works for 338 Lapua shooting 285 and 300 grain bullets?

^^^^1-9 or some variant of that.. I have a 1 in 9.25 shoots 300gr vdls very well.

My rem700 5R bolt gun has a 1/9 with 20 inch barrel. It shoots all common bullet weights 55-80 grain very well.

Very very well. A lot of factors at play and kick ass barrel is one.

PB