Corrected! Colt Expanse CA factory version- flash hider: how attached? See Post #10

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08-21-17, 00:25
socalsd

Corrected! Colt Expanse CA factory version- flash hider: how attached? See Post #10

Anyone here with personal knowledge how the flash hider on the CA factory version of the Colt Expanse is attached?

A friend is concerned because I measured the barrel for him and it appears to be about 14.5". I have no knowledge to determine if hider is permanently attached, and I've found nothing about the issue with this rifle on the internet, except there's a HB version and it's a Davidson Exclusive with a permanently attached flash hider, which leads one to believe that maybe the one that he purchased may not be permanently attached as it was not a HB version AFAIK. Rifle was sold to him retail with a bullet button last year, a requirement in CA. It was the later version that had the dust cover and forward assist. I don't know what HB stands for, but his indeed has a heavy barrel, heavier, thicker than a 6920.

One might presume that if it was sold at retail from a reputable FFL here in California that the flash hider would be permanently attached in some manner so that barrel length would equal or exceed 16" and he'd not be concerned about it being a SBR.

If indeed permanently attached, what method did Colt (or whoever assembled the rifle for Colt) use?

The tyrannical CA gun laws, now the regulations place the burden on us to inspect our muzzle devices and make sure they are permanently attached (via specified methods only) to include the hider in barrel length, says so in the newly adopted Assault Weapon regulations. My friend wants assurances (neither he nor I build rifles) in spite of the purchase retail from FFL. There's no such thing as being too careful here, believe me. This is really not that tyrannical due to the NFA & GCA laws but there's a lot worse going on here in this Great State of California. We can't have SBRs here like in other states but that's not the only thing. We have to register as assault weapons our rifles with mag locking devices (bullet buttons) now, or convert them into featureless monstrosities or dangerous fixed magazine rifles. There's much more going on that I won't comment upon as it would be a very long post and I don't want to bore anyone.

Thanks in advance. I've told him to give Colt a call tomorrow about it, but was wondering what you here had to say about it.
08-21-17, 06:57
GH41

1 Attachment(s)

Pinned and welded. This is what a real good job looks like. Most are more visible. Bottom of the MD near the rear.
Attachment 47129
08-21-17, 11:46
socalsd

GH41- Thanks.

But I called my friend and he said there were no visible weld marks. I am going to copy n paste my recent post from calguns (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...8#post20539348) concerning this issue:

"Called Colt a few moments ago.

HB stands for 'Heavy Barrel'.

Davidson's Exclusive means 14.5" bbl only offered through Davidson's, and was told the gun store must've ordered through Davidson's. I wasn't aware of that, but it appears to make sense. I clicked on the Tombstone Tactical link and can see that retailer is offering it as a Davidson's Exclusive: https://www.tombstonetactical.com/ca...barrel-pinned/. My friend did not purchase from them in AZ, but from his LGS in California.

'Forest' at Colt CS assured me these 14.5" barrels are pinned and welded, that the uppers are farmed out to another source, and some vary as to visible weld marks. Removing flash hider is very difficult and I don't remember if he stated it would be destroyed or there might be damage to the barrel or both.

He also confirmed about the NFA form before it leaves the factory for each version of the Expanse with 14.5" bbl.

If the barrel is 16" they are not pinned and welded, obviously. So what Glock-a-mole posted above seems consistent and makes sense. I mean why pin and weld when one already has a 16" bbl.

Thanks!

Later: Called friend and he said after inspecting the entire flash hider there were no visible weld marks. Perhaps he received one with a better welding. I told him it should no longer be of any concern."
08-21-17, 12:52
Junkie

Federal law requires muzzle devices to be permanent to be included in barrel length, so that has nothing to do with CA.

If it's pinned/welded and the weld is blended well enough that you can't find it, it's really difficult to remove. If it's visible, it's easy with a mill and can even be done with an angle grinder.
08-21-17, 13:49
socalsd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkie

Federal law requires muzzle devices to be permanent to be included in barrel length, so that has nothing to do with CA.

If it's pinned/welded and the weld is blended well enough that you can't find it, it's really difficult to remove. If it's visible, it's easy with a mill and can even be done with an angle grinder.

Thanks for your comments, Junkie.

Understood but it has something to do with CA because it is also recited in the CA regs: 5471(d),(x). Federal law preempts if there's a conflict. Regs are now up in the CCR: https://govt.westlaw.com/calregs/Doc...a=(sc.Default)

(d) “Barrel length” means the length of the barrel measured as follows: Without consideration of any extensions or protrusions rearward of the closed bolt or breech-face the approved procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100o F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the closed bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured."
...

(x) “Overall length of less than 30 inches” with respect to a centerfire rifle means the rifle has been measured in the shortest possible configuration that the weapon will function/fire and the measurement is less than 30 inches. Folding and telescoping stocks shall be collapsed prior to measurement. The approved method for measuring the length of the rifle is to measure the firearm from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device, if so equipped, to that part of the stock that is furthest from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device. (Prior to taking a measurement the owner must also check any muzzle devices for how they are attached to the barrel.)".
08-22-17, 03:38
Iraqgunz

My personal opinion is that someone is most likely worried about nothing. Or maybe I am missing something.
08-22-17, 09:22
MistWolf

Unfortunately, California has been passing draconian laws with severe penalties and promising aggressive enforcement. That makes complying with the law very stressful
08-22-17, 16:35
GH41

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistWolf

Unfortunately, California has been passing draconian laws with severe penalties and promising aggressive enforcement. That makes complying with the law very stressful

I cannot imagine the weld not being visible from Colt. Maybe the subcontractor that builds the Expanse line does a better job. Maybe it slipped through a crack. I'd like to see a good picture. Maybe his buddy doesn't know what he is looking for.
08-22-17, 18:00
Junkie

Quote:

Originally Posted by socalsd

Thanks for your comments, Junkie.

Understood but it has something to do with CA because it is also recited in the CA regs: 5471(d),(x). Federal law preempts if there's a conflict. Regs are now up in the CCR: https://govt.westlaw.com/calregs/Doc...a=(sc.Default)

(d) “Barrel length” means the length of the barrel measured as follows: Without consideration of any extensions or protrusions rearward of the closed bolt or breech-face the approved procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100o F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the closed bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.Too bad that I can't copy n paste the regs legibly but in 5471(x) they say before measuring barrel length to first check out the muzzle device for how it is attached to the barrel and that it must be permanently attached to be included in barrel length, and that we are, in so many words, responsible for it...
...

(x) “Overall length of less than 30 inches” with respect to a centerfire rifle means the rifle has been measured in the shortest possible configuration that the weapon will function/fire and the measurement is less than 30 inches. Folding and telescoping stocks shall be collapsed prior to measurement. The approved method for measuring the length of the rifle is to measure the firearm from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device, if so equipped, to that part of the stock that is furthest from the end of the barrel, or permanently attached muzzle device. (Prior to taking a measurement the owner must also check any muzzle devices for how they are attached to the barrel.)".

Right, and if it's properly done it's ok for both of those.

If not, you have an SBR so AW charges would be the least of my concern.
08-22-17, 18:48
socalsd

THREAD ANSWER CORRECTED IMPORTANT!

I STAND CORRECTED.

The firearm is not at all the HB version with 14.5" bbl.

The REASON no weld or other marks appeared is because flash hider is not permanently attached.

I went back to the friend's house and measured as outlined in the regs recited in an earlier post. I hadn't done it that way the first time-merely took a tape measure to the side of the firearm with everything attached .

Following the exact procedure in the regs 5471(d),(x), it came to about 17.5" WITH THE A2 FLASH HIDER. The hider is about 1.5" so the barrel is 16"! :o

Firearm is CE 2000 plain and simple, with 16" bbl. Apparently the CE 2000 HB comes with a SOCOM chrome-lined barrel and other extras, including 14.5" bbl with permanently attached flash hider. Not so with the CE 2000.

I thought his might be a HB due to the heavy barrel. Yes, it has a heavy bbl but it is not the HB version, which is the 'Davidson's Exclusive'.

Looks as if the only difference twixt the CE 1000 and 2000 is the added dust cover and forward assist. Both have 16" barrels and removable flash hiders.

I learned a lot via this thread, along with some embarrassment. But in my defense Colt did not help me out much. Colt did not ask me for the serial #, and I did not volunteer it. Perhaps I would've learned the lesson at that time had it been given but both of us were under the assumption the barrel was only 14.5". Live and learn.

Thanks to all who have contributed to the thread! Appreciate it!