Comparison Chart of Major AR Brands

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10-19-07, 04:24
UVvis

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob_s

And again, others bring up the TDP, not me. I specifically avoid even discussing it, and the "mil-spec" loaded word, as I do not believe that it is germane to the discussion. I frankly don't care where the list of requirements came from, I only care to list features that are offered and who offers them.

I'd like to say thanks to Rob for doing putting this list together. You can look at the list as a 'who offers what for how much' list. So depending on your criteria for a M4(ish) gun, you can find a manufacturer that has what you want and look at overall value of what you are getting. There is great value in being able to do this.

I don't see why people assume that this is a 'which is best' list. It is only listing desirable features and who offers what.
10-19-07, 05:02
rob_s

Quote:

Originally Posted by UVvis

I'd like to say thanks to Rob for doing putting this list together. You can look at the list as a 'who offers what for how much' list. So depending on your criteria for a M4(ish) gun, you can find a manufacturer that has what you want and look at overall value of what you are getting. There is great value in being able to do this.

Thank you. This is entirely the point. I do want to make one edit to something you said though.

Quote:

It is only listing features some may find desirable and who offers what.
10-19-07, 10:13
C4IGrant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade

Who has the TDP on this site and is thus able to verify that what is claimed to be TDP, is really TDP? Without this, it becomes "Second hand information WITHOUT a source." No?

Some of the site sponsors on this forum have it. I also talk to other people outside of this forum that have access to it. One of the companies that I talk to about what the TDP says is Sabre Defence.

There is also a difference between information that I post and information from someone that we do not know.

C4
10-19-07, 10:20
C4IGrant

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbfurr

If I may, let me claify a few things about my earlier post.

1. I am not "the" or "a" industry insider. My definition of an insider in this context would be someone who works for a manufacturer vs. someone who distributes or retails their products.

2. I am new to this forum and apologize for posting a "secondhand" item without identifying the author. I wasn't aware that is a no-no. The author gave me permission to post the information provided I did not reveal the author or the company for which he works.

3. I certainly did not intend to offend anyone or cause a fuss, so don't be too hard on me. I found the chart interesting and applaud the fellows that obviously went to a lot of trouble to gather the informaton.

An industry insider would generally be someone that has the TDP in their hand. Someone that just distributes/retails a product would not fall into this catagory IMHO.

Your industry insider could be an employee at oly arms. This persons opinion on how a fighting should be built would carry zero water around here.

Unless the person that gave you the info wants share their name and the company that they work for, then please don't bother posting what they have to say.

C4
10-19-07, 10:23
C4IGrant

Quote:

Originally Posted by UVvis

I'd like to say thanks to Rob for doing putting this list together. You can look at the list as a 'who offers what for how much' list. So depending on your criteria for a M4(ish) gun, you can find a manufacturer that has what you want and look at overall value of what you are getting. There is great value in being able to do this.

I don't see why people assume that this is a 'which is best' list. It is only listing desirable features and who offers what.

Agree. The chart just tells you what the Govt calls out and which companies follow it (as best they can). If an option isn't of interest to you, then that is fine.

C4
10-19-07, 10:50
Renegade

Quote:

Originally Posted by C4IGrant

Some of the site sponsors on this forum have it. I also talk to other people outside of this forum that have access to it. One of the companies that I talk to about what the TDP says is Sabre Defence.

There is also a difference between information that I post and information from someone that we do not know.

C4

Thanks. I am surprised someone has not obtained it via FOIA or something.
10-19-07, 10:56
Canonshooter

Thanks for posting this! It looks like as soon as I install the BCM BCG and CTR Carbine Stock MIL-Spec Package, my BM M4gery A2 will be good to go.
10-19-07, 15:08
UVvis

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob_s

Thank you. This is entirely the point. I do want to make one edit to something you said though.

Quote:

It is only listing features some may find desirable and who offers what.

Thanks, that is more accurate.
10-20-07, 23:13
TUNNEL RAT 33

that is a great chart . i am curious as to where HK, POF, and LWRC fit in on the chart . would like to hear your input .
10-21-07, 00:19
Shihan

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUNNEL RAT 33

that is a great chart . i am curious as to where HK, POF, and LWRC fit in on the chart . would like to hear your input .

They wont fit as the chart is for M4ish type weapons and the ones you listed are piston guns.
10-21-07, 00:50
Ekie

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbfurr

Two companies, Colt Defense and FN, have access to and use of the Government Technical Drawing Package (TDP), and literally sign away the life of their company that they cannot and will not use that TDP for anything other than government contracted builds.

In regards to FN you are correct.

Hate to pile on, but in regards to Colt that is incorrect. It is the Government that has purchased a nonexclusive license agreement (DAAF03-67-C-0108) for the TDP from Colt. Meaning it is the Government that has limited use of Colt's TDP.
10-21-07, 01:09
Ekie

Keep the discussion on track.
10-21-07, 07:16
rob_s

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUNNEL RAT 33

that is a great chart . i am curious as to where HK, POF, and LWRC fit in on the chart . would like to hear your input .

It's something I've toyed with, but it would be a separate chart. Some of the items, like barrel steel and QC for barrel steel, would be the same. I'd probably have to add a column for piston type (short, long, whatever) as well.

Frankly, the piston guns don't hold much interest for me so it's tough to get excited enough about them to take the time to do the research and compile the info.
10-21-07, 17:51
UVvis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekie

If Sabre Defence was to have aquired Colt's TDP in a legitimate fasion, they are not to be discussing it with you, as per the NDA:

Is it actually Colt's or the Military's? Couldn't the military have it's own criteria for spare parts that includes the specs for all the individual parts?
10-21-07, 19:00
BFIBri

I have a S&W M&PT with a BCM Bolt group and a H2 buffer, If I replace the upper with M4 feed ramps and upgrade the barrel with a LMT or BCM, how would that stack up?

Bri
10-21-07, 23:51
Ekie

Quote:

Originally Posted by UVvis

Is it actually Colt's or the Military's? Couldn't the military have it's own criteria for spare parts that includes the specs for all the individual parts?

No, the M16/M4 TDP is Colt's. For example, here is an award for some minor replacement parts, notice the clause stating that the TDP is subject to restrictions:

https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais/award...R0309/0000.pdf
10-22-07, 10:18
Ekie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade

Thanks. I am surprised someone has not obtained it via FOIA or something.

Colt's TDP is exempted from the FOIA, see Exemption 4, TRADE SECRETS:

http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/exemption4.htm
10-22-07, 17:31
Renegade

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekie

Colt's TDP is exempted from the FOIA, see Exemption 4, TRADE SECRETS:

http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/exemption4.htm

"or something" :cool:
10-22-07, 20:54
Ekie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade

"or something" :cool:

Yes, there are other methods, see Christianson v. Colt Industries.
10-29-07, 12:29
rob_s

Updated version posted.

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