Michigan SBR Law

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08-24-10, 20:37
Mr. V

Michigan SBR Law

So I've just saved enough to buy my first Noveske rifle. I've had my eyes set on the 12.5" models, only to find out that SBRs are prohibited in MI. :(:(:(

If I understand correctly, Michigan Law states that the minimum legal barrel length for a rifle should be 16 inches and the overall length has to be over 26 inches. If the barrel is shorter than that or the overall length of the rifle is under 26 inches...the weapon is not legal in Michigan. Someone please :confused: confirm or dispute my understanding of the said law.

1. So if I were to buy a 14.5 with the flash hider, would that make me compliant with MI laws?

2. What would be the overall length of a Noveske with 12.5" barrels?
08-24-10, 21:03
kal

In Michigan.....

barrel below 16 inches with non-pinned/welded muzzle attachment = SBR and is illegal.

Rifle below 26 inches in overall length whether the stock is folded or not = SBR and is illegal.

rifle has 16 inch barrel, but rifle is between 26-30 inches whether stock is folded or not = pistol and needs pistol purchase permit and registration.

Quote:

If I understand correctly, Michigan Law states that the minimum legal barrel length for a rifle should be 16 inches and the overall length has to be over 26 inches. If the barrel is shorter than that or the overall length of the rifle is under 26 inches...the weapon is not legal in Michigan. Someone please confirm or dispute my understanding of the said law

It's correct, except that in MI if the stock can be retracted or folded and be under 26 inches when folded/retracted, it's an SBR and therefore illegal. MI law regarding what defines an SBR is different from federal law. This is the reason why we can't have the Uzi carbine with the folding stock because with the stock folded, the length of the weapon becomes under 26 inches and is now an SBR, therefore illegal.

Quote:

So if I were to buy a 14.5 with the flash hider, would that make me compliant with MI laws?

Assuming the barrel is 14.5 inches, the flash hider would have to be 1.5 inches long and permanently attached to be 16 inch legal.

Quote:

What would be the overall length of a Noveske with 12.5" barrels?

Overall length of the rifle? Not sure, but it would still be an illegal SBR due to the 12.5 inch barrel.
08-24-10, 22:45
CJFirefly

You could also purchase the upper and have it on a lower registered as a pistol. This would mean the lower only has a buffer tube though...no stock.
08-24-10, 23:03
Iraqgunz

Mr. V,

Since you cannot have an SBR I would stick with a good proven 16" carbine. I would not get an expensive barrel and pin a flash hider in place, nor would I get a gay AR pistol.

That's my .02 cents.
08-25-10, 11:20
Mr. V

Thank you for making it clear for me. :D

I guess I have no choice but go with a 16" Noveske or KAC.
08-25-10, 12:54
Enoc

That is unfortunate about your local laws. I have owned a couple of Noveskes and no matter what the length, they are great guns. However if your mind was set on going with a short barrel and permanently attaching a compensator to reach 16"; I saw this picture on another forum and it came to mind when I read your first post. Personally I would rather go 12.5", but if I legally couldn't, I thought is was pretty cool. Good luck with whatever you end up getting.

http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/a...n/IMG_0106.jpg

Oh, If I remember correct it's a Noveske barrel cut to 13.7" with a perm attached KX3.

.
08-25-10, 19:09
Iraqgunz

Here is my question. Why would you want to go to 13.7" with a permed flash hider? In this case you are losing probably a couple of hundred feet per second in MV and not benefit at all.

If you can't get the benefit of a short barrel I don't see how this makes any sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoc

That is unfortunate about your local laws. I have owned a couple of Noveskes and no matter what the length, they are great guns. However if your mind was set on going with a short barrel and permanently attaching a compensator to reach 16"; I saw this picture on another forum and it came to mind when I read your first post. Personally I would rather go 12.5", but if I legally couldn't, I thought is was pretty cool. Good luck with whatever you end up getting.

http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/a...n/IMG_0106.jpg

Oh, If I remember correct it's a Noveske barrel cut to 13.7" with a perm attached KX3.

.
08-25-10, 21:29
GarrettJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by kal

Assuming the barrel is 14.5 inches, the flash hider would have to be 1.5 inches long and permanently attached to be 16 inch legal.

Almost. But you're an inch short.

You have 1/2" or so of overlap between the barrel and the flash hider. So 14.5" + 1.5" only equals 15" when assembled.

:D
08-26-10, 10:02
Enoc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iraqgunz

Here is my question. Why would you want to go to 13.7" with a permed flash hider? In this case you are losing probably a couple of hundred feet per second in MV and not benefit at all.

If you can't get the benefit of a short barrel I don't see how this makes any sense.

Haha, I agree with you. I'm saying if you were dead set on going with the short barrel and pinned brake, I think that would be cool. It will have more velocity than a 12.5" barrel and still makes legal requirements for length at 16.1". I'm not debating on FPS, you loose velocity with any SBR, I'm just saying it looks like fun if I had to make it legal length.
08-26-10, 18:45
Iraqgunz

It just doesn't compute. Especially when you look at the cost of the barrel, the flash hider and the cost of pinning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoc

Haha, I agree with you. I'm saying if you were dead set on going with the short barrel and pinned brake, I think that would be cool. It will have more velocity than a 12.5" barrel and still makes legal requirements for length at 16.1". I'm not debating on FPS, you loose velocity with any SBR, I'm just saying it looks like fun if I had to make it legal length.
08-26-10, 23:25
BC98

I agree with Iraqgunz, there's no sense in doing the 13.7" barrel/KX3 combo when a 14.5"/Vortex (or similar) set-up will yield an upper with the same barrel length and less weight. I lived in MI and would never have bought the 13.7" for the above reason, in addition to not wanting to lose the muzzle velocity of the round.

I live in an SBR-friendly state now so I accept the trade-off of velocity for compactness. But in MI, you gain nothing (other than weight) with the suggested 13.7" configuration.

But then again, I'm more of a function over form kind of person so "it would look cool" isn't a valid reason for me. Function IS cool.
08-27-10, 00:44
Enoc

Lol this is getting taken way to seriously and off topic from the OP. I completely agree with both of you. I never suggested going with the 13.7 over a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel was superior at all. If I lived in MI... I would move to a different state. Problem solved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC98

I agree with Iraqgunz, there's no sense in doing the 13.7" barrel/KX3 combo when a 14.5"/Vortex (or similar) set-up will yield an upper with the same barrel length and less weight. I lived in MI and would never have bought the 13.7" for the above reason, in addition to not wanting to lose the muzzle velocity of the round.

I live in an SBR-friendly state now so I accept the trade-off of velocity for compactness. But in MI, you gain nothing (other than weight) with the suggested 13.7" configuration.

But then again, I'm more of a function over form kind of person so "it would look cool" isn't a valid reason for me. Function IS cool.
09-10-10, 01:54
Jmacken37

I live in MI and have settled on full auto as being the way to have shorter rifles and shotguns. Doesn't work so well if you don't have an SOT, though.

If you want a shorter gun, check out this upper which is legal in MI:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-E...cm-uh-eag1.htm

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vsp...-UH-EAG1-2.jpg

Jake
01-06-11, 12:58
Mr. V

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmacken37

I live in MI and have settled on full auto as being the way to have shorter rifles and shotguns. Doesn't work so well if you don't have an SOT, though.

If you want a shorter gun, check out this upper which is legal in MI:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-E...cm-uh-eag1.htm

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vsp...-UH-EAG1-2.jpg

Jake

Question:

How is that Michigan-legal if it's 14.5"? Is it due to the flash hider making up for the 1.5"? Thanks!!!
01-06-11, 13:16
Joeywhat

If the muzzle device is permanently attached then it counts towards barrel length.

Also realize that MI measures OAL with the stock in it's shortest position IF (and ONLY IF) the rifle is still 'fully operable' in suck a position.

This means a rifle like the Sub 2000 is legal, as when folded it cannot be fired. It still must be registered as a pistol due to OAL when unfolded, however.
01-06-11, 13:23
Raven Armament

When a muzzle accessory is permanently attached, it's part of the barrel for OAL consideration. The barrel is considered 16 inches and not an SBR in Michigan. That is simply a waste of money IMO since you are giving up 1.5 inches of rifled barrel yet maintaining the same OAL. You are losing velocity. Since you are limited to a 16 inch or longer barrel in MI (unless FA) I would get a 16 inch barrel and be done with it. No need to complicate things.
01-06-11, 13:50
Joeywhat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven Armament

When a muzzle accessory is permanently attached, it's part of the barrel for OAL consideration. The barrel is considered 16 inches and not an SBR in Michigan. That is simply a waste of money IMO since you are giving up 1.5 inches of rifled barrel yet maintaining the same OAL. You are losing velocity. Since you are limited to a 16 inch or longer barrel in MI (unless FA) I would get a 16 inch barrel and be done with it. No need to complicate things.

The 14.5" is still shorter, unless the 16" barrel has no muzzle device.

Just because the goobermint considers it 'invisible' if it's not permanently attached doesn't mean it's not there...the OAL of the 16" barrel will be 17"+ with most muzzle devices.

If you want a 14.5" barrel, and have no plans of removing the muzzle device, then I don't see why it's not a viable option. If you're into changing the MD every other week or adding a free float rail after it's pinned then it's probably not the wisest choice. It IS shorter, and if you're never touching the MD anyways I don't get why it's so bad.
01-06-11, 14:06
Raven Armament

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeywhat

The 14.5" is still shorter, unless the 16" barrel has no muzzle device.

You missed the entire point. 14.5 plus muzzle device to make the barrel a legal 16 inches is still 16 inches. If you're limited to 16 inches of barrel, why would someone want a 14.5 + muzzle device instead of a full 16 inch barrel.
01-06-11, 15:02
Iraqgunz

Exactly. Where did the whole necropost come from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven Armament

You missed the entire point. 14.5 plus muzzle device to make the barrel a legal 16 inches is still 16 inches. If you're limited to 16 inches of barrel, why would someone want a 14.5 + muzzle device instead of a full 16 inch barrel.
01-06-11, 15:23
Joeywhat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven Armament

You missed the entire point. 14.5 plus muzzle device to make the barrel a legal 16 inches is still 16 inches. If you're limited to 16 inches of barrel, why would someone want a 14.5 + muzzle device instead of a full 16 inch barrel.

Because it's 1.5" shorter with a MD added...
01-06-11, 17:52
Mr. V

I have my eyes set on a KAC SR15. I'm ready to pull the trigger by Monday or Tuesday
.
KAC SR15 length is as follows:

LENGTH w/STOCK RET. 33" / 84 cm
LENGTH w/STOCK EXT. 36.25" / 92 cm

This should be Michigan - Legal. I am so excited. I also intend to replace the stock with a Magpul CTR and the flashhider with a KAC Triple Tap Brake. I hope I can still keep the gun within the allowed length after replacing the parts.
01-06-11, 17:56
Joeywhat

It's impossible to have a 'standard' AR15 with 16" barrel be under 30" OAL. You'd have to have a folding stock to get there, or a barrel less then 16" in length.

Even with just the receiver extension it's a little over the limit.
01-06-11, 18:38
Coleslaw

Many people are enamored with the 14.5" barrel and probably not for the right reasons. The 14.5" barrel length came about after lessons learned by the XM177 issues from the Viet Nam era. Colt had problems with short barrels - 10" and 11.5" - running consistently. Changes in gas port hole size, moderators, etc. were used in an effort to enable proper function. Other ‘remedies’ i.e. H type buffers, springs, modified carriers, etc., were down the road some years away.

After some testing, the conclusion was the 14.5" barrel offered the best combination of reliability while maintaining some level of efficacy from the M193 round in a 'shorty". So allot of guys get hung up on that length I suppose because it is the length the military has traditionally used for some time now, and/or because of the ‘cool’ factor. It is not like some magic - the 14.5” length.

If I were considering a SBR, I personally wouldn't do it for a 14.5", but would if I wanted a 10" or 11.5". The 16" is a good intermediate length and the extra 1.5" over the 14.5" won't make a hill of beans difference to the downside in 99.9% of circumstances. I can't really think of a downside.

11.5" and 16" are my two choices. May look at a 12.5".
01-06-11, 22:52
PlatoCATM

While I have similar feelings about the pistol AR, this is one situation where if having a short rifle caliber gun was a necessity I might attempt a pistol build. Otherwise I would have to agree, the concept is lame. Better judgment would say to stick with a 16" barrel and whatever stock and muzzle device will keep you within regs.

Coleslaw, good info, thanks. I went with the 12.5. It has less noticeable blast than the 11.5 I shot before deciding.
01-06-11, 23:43
Raven Armament

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeywhat

It's impossible to have a 'standard' AR15 with 16" barrel be under 30" OAL. You'd have to have a folding stock to get there, or a barrel less then 16" in length.

Even with just the receiver extension it's a little over the limit.

This thread wasn't about the "30 inch rule". Anyway, what I'm getting at is a permanent muzzle device on a sub-16 inch barrel severely limits the adaptive nature of muzzle threads. In other words, the barrel is married to an individual muzzle device, so if something better comes along you are ditching the barrel instead of simply removing the muzzle device and indexing a replacement. Furthermore, I don't think the perception of "gain" in maneuverability in an "end result" 16 inch barrel over a 16 inch barrel plus muzzle device is on solid ground. The inch or so OAL is of no consequence, even for professional door kickers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coleslaw

Many people are enamored with the 14.5" barrel and probably not for the right reasons. The 14.5" barrel length came about after lessons learned by the XM177 issues from the Viet Nam era. Colt had problems with short barrels - 10" and 11.5" - running consistently. Changes in gas port hole size, moderators, etc. were used in an effort to enable proper function. Other ‘remedies’ i.e. H type buffers, springs, modified carriers, etc., were down the road some years away.

After some testing, the conclusion was the 14.5" barrel offered the best combination of reliability while maintaining some level of efficacy from the M193 round in a 'shorty". So allot of guys get hung up on that length I suppose because it is the length the military has traditionally used for some time now, and/or because of the ‘cool’ factor. It is not like some magic - the 14.5” length.

From former military that has seen the coming and going of the Commando and the M4 carbine, it was explained to them (and stated to me) the reason for the 14.5 inch barrel length on the carbine was it was the shortest barrel length that could still facilitate the attachment of the standard issue bayonet. The M4 carbine was to replace the M16 as the MBR, which historical military doctrine says it has to have bayonet mounting capability. I don't know if any of what I've been told is true, but if so, makes it interesting.
01-08-11, 11:27
sig-x

You can always save up and purchase a rDIAS or RR and put any short upper you like on it.