Why not permanently attach a Flash Hider w/ +1,100 degree silver solder?

Have any of you guys permanently attached a flash hider with +1,100 degree silver solder? Here are a few products from Brownells that look like they would get the job done.

http://www.brownells.com/1/1/8733-st...ze-fusion.html

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1..._CONTROL_PASTE

I like the idea of being able to do it myself and being able to change a FH without destroying it. I just wonder why I do not hear about more folks doing it. Cutting off a Phantom would not be too expensive but a Battle Comp or an AAC mount/FH is kinda expensive to be throwing away. The solder looks easier and like it would look better. Do people pin because it is easier to visually inspect the perm job? Is there risk of damaging the rifling?

I too would like to know more about this. I don't know any shops that offer this service, all I have seen is pin and weld. This could be for liability reasons.

What I have read is that you apply 1100 degree silver solder paste to both sets of threads. Aplly heat stop on the exposed (non threaded) part of the barrel and any kind of chalk on the last 1/8 inch before the end of the barrel. The chalk prevents the silver solder from adhering to the barrel and the heat stop is supposed to protect the barrel as well. Once the prep is done you attach your flash hider like you normally would and make sure it's timed the way you want it. Once it's set you heat the flash hider only to 1100 degrees which requires getting the flash hider to a deep blood red look and wait for the solder to start running out. From there it's just a matter of letting it cool naturally (ie not quenching in water). Test once cool to see if the flash hider will come off.

With that being said sounds easy enough to and I am surprised more shops/people don't do it this way.

Reasons:

It looks like shit.

It has the possibility to screw up the heat treatment of parts.

It makes you a wannabe.

It ruins the value of your gun.

Buy a 16" barrel or SBR instead.

So guys that buy this gun :http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M...gers-s/151.htm are wannabes?

Rush,

Those are the same instructions I read.

Scotty,

Not sure about the wanna be? I have an SBR and I am three months into the wait for the approval of my second SBR tax stamp.

I have a 14.5" middy and had an AAC flash hider pinned. I think it would have looked alot better soldered.

If the finish is messed up because of the high heat that would be a good reason to steer clear? Have you used the heat stop and chaulk method? If it does not work well then looks like pinning is the way to go.

I don't see the point in spending $200 for a 14.5" bbl. I would want to go shorter for an SBR especially with the perm FH as an option. I wanted at least one non SBR to make travel easier.

How would it ruin the value of your gun? If the heat stop and chaulk work then I would think it would make the gun easier to sell.

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Originally Posted by scottryan

Reasons:

It looks like shit.

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Seriously?

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Originally Posted by scottryan

It has the possibility to screw up the heat treatment of parts.

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There's one valid point for debate.

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Originally Posted by scottryan

It makes you a wannabe.

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Seriously?

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Originally Posted by scottryan

It ruins the value of your gun.

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If you are a collector who doesn't shoot your guns, then this might be a concern to you.

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Originally Posted by scottryan

Buy a 16" barrel or SBR instead.

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Many of us can't own SBR's due to state restrictions. A 14.5" barrel with a perm flash hider is the shortest overall length carbine folks who are restricted from owning SBR's are legally allowed to own. There is a noticeable difference when getting in & out of a vehicle and negotiating tight hallways/doorways with a 14.5"+perm flash hider vs. a 16" with a muzzle device attached.

That fact that it doesn't serve YOU any practical purpose, doesn't make those shooters that it is practical for "posers".

It's very rare to see someone good enough to weld it so that you will not require a lot of finish work to make it look "factory". If you found that person, they would be so inundated with work of various types to be too busy to do a $60 weld job for flash suppressors.

If you did it yourself without the proper knowledge, you get whatever you get. It might be permanent, but it might also be permanently ugly as hell. It could also change the strength or hardness of a pretty key piece of your barrel.

I suggest you proceed with caution unless you are a knowledgeable welder, machinist, gunsmith, or other metalworker.

As to the wannabe comments, they need to get knocked right the hell off.

Shivan

Thank you. That is the info I was looking for. It sounded so easy and I could not find any one doing it. Now I know why.

You guys can mark me as a wanna be. I wanna beable to afford that EAG carbine but it is too much for my budget. The only thing I would change would be the sling. Awesome looking set up.

Nick

I found an old post of yours ref pretty much the same question. I tried to PM you but the system kept crashing. Did you get set up to do the perm jobs yourself?

I've seen some fantastic silver soldering on custom knives so I don't think "looks" is an issue. You almost have to get a magnifying gless out to see the solder.

We have a lot of chrome-moly HP steam pipe at work and when it was installed the welds are "stress relieved" at around 900-1000 degrees, if I remember correctly. So, screwing up the "heat treating" would probably be my 1st guess why it isn't widely practiced.

Plus if someone did a good soldering job, it would be hard to do a visual inspection to tell if the FH was removable. I'm sure some gungho BATF guy that did not see a pin or weld would confiscate and ask questions later?? Maybe the law requires some visual positive proof the FH can't be removed??

.

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Originally Posted by SHIVAN

It's very rare to see someone good enough to weld it so that you will not require a lot of finish work to make it look "factory".
If you found that person, they would be so inundated with work of various types to be too busy to do a $60 weld job for flash suppressors.

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Well said.

My biggest complaint about silver solder jobs as typically done on AR barrels is that they don't pass BATFE's "common hand tools" test.
The way I saw it explained is that if you can remove a muzzle device with common handtools and non damage the barrel beyond use in the act of that, then the Batfe would not consider the job to have been permanent.
I have removed many silver soldered muzzle devices with a 3/4" combination wrench.
That's a pretty "common" hand tool in my book.

Here is an example of one such barrel that had been re-parkerized after the silver solder job:

http://ar15barrels.com/tech/permanen...er-results.jpg

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Originally Posted by usmcvet

Scotty,

Not sure about the wanna be? I have an SBR and I am three months into the wait for the approval of my second SBR tax stamp.

I have a 14.5" middy and had an AAC flash hider pinned. I think it would have looked alot better soldered.

If the finish is messed up because of the high heat that would be a good reason to steer clear? Have you used the heat stop and chaulk method? If it does not work well then looks like pinning is the way to go.

I don't see the point in spending $200 for a 14.5" bbl. I would want to go shorter for an SBR especially with the perm FH as an option. I wanted at least one non SBR to make travel easier.

How would it ruin the value of your gun? If the heat stop and chaulk work then I would think it would make the gun easier to sell.

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If you have an SBR already, why are you getting more permanent flash hiders?

Why not get more NFA uppers?

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Originally Posted by AR15barrels

Well said.

My biggest complaint about silver solder jobs as typically done on AR barrels is that they don't pass BATFE's "common hand tools" test.
The way I saw it explained is that if you can remove a muzzle device with common handtools and non damage the barrel beyond use in the act of that, then the Batfe would not consider the job to have been permanent.
I have removed many silver soldered muzzle devices with a 3/4" combination wrench.
That's a pretty "common" hand tool in my book.

Here is an example of one such barrel that had been re-parkerized after the silver solder job:

http://ar15barrels.com/tech/permanen...er-results.jpg

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man thats ugly brings a tear to my eye

When you twist off a pinned muzzle device, you damage the barrel beyond use...

http://ar15barrels.com/tech/permanent-damage.jpg

You would not believe some of the things people send me.
That's why I take pictures. :haha:

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Originally Posted by nickdrak

If you are a collector who doesn't shoot your guns, then this might be a concern to you.

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Irrelavent.

When you go to sell this barrel after an inexperienced person realizes their foolish ways to get an SBR, they will lose money. The money they could have bought a tax stamp with in the first place.

It has nothing to do with collectability.

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There is a noticeable difference when getting in & out of a vehicle and negotiating tight hallways/doorways with a 14.5"+perm flash hider vs. a 16" with a muzzle device attached.

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I already know that. That is the only valid reason for this if you live in a communist state.

I love my SBR and can't wait for my second to be approved. I've been bitten by the bug. I wish we could have supressors here in VT. My checkbook is glad we can not. Like I said earlier I wanted one non SBR so I do not need a travel letter if I want to take an AR out of state.

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There is a noticeable difference when getting in & out of a vehicle and negotiating tight hallways/doorways with a 14.5"+perm flash hider vs. a 16" with a muzzle device attached.

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I already know that.

so what exactly makes people who want to do this a wannabe ?

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Originally Posted by devildogljb

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There is a noticeable difference when getting in & out of a vehicle and negotiating tight hallways/doorways with a 14.5"+perm flash hider vs. a 16" with a muzzle device attached.

Quote:
I already know that.

so what exactly makes people who want to do this a wannabe ?

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I'd still rather have a 16" barrel.

IMO: It's far easier to just let ADCO pin it for $30. I've gotten it done by them several times in the past (one very recently) and all have been perfect.

Every time I've gotten my upper back in 5-7 days as well.

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Originally Posted by devildogljb

so what exactly makes people who want to do this a wannabe ?

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See my warning above in blue. I've asked that the "wannabe" discussion be ceased, please let it end.

Thanks.

Here is an example of one such barrel that had been re-parkerized after the silver solder job:

http://ar15barrels.com/tech/permanen...er-results.jpg[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by AR15barrels

When you twist off a pinned muzzle device, you damage the barrel beyond use...

http://ar15barrels.com/tech/permanent-damage.jpg

You would not believe some of the things people send me.
That's why I take pictures. :haha:

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The first photos were scary looking the second ones made me laugh! This is exactly what I was looking for thank you. I thought there must have been a good reason. If it is too good to be true there is usually a reason.

Keep the camera handy!

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Originally Posted by ucrt

Plus if someone did a good soldering job, it would be hard to do a visual inspection to tell if the FH was removable. I'm sure some gungho BATF guy that did not see a pin or weld would confiscate and ask questions later?? Maybe the law requires some visual positive proof the FH can't be removed??

.

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No. A good pin job leaves no visual indicator either.

A good silver solder job on a barrel is hard to do. It takes a LOT of heat since you have a big heat sink of a barrel draining heat. They can be done such that they look fine but it is hard hard hard.

I know Bushmaster has their issues but the 14.5" bbl on the Bushy I bought in 1996, had the Vortex pinned and sloldered so you could not see the mark with out knowing it was there. Once you looked at 6 o'clock it was clearly there but you would not have noticed it w/o looking for it. They did an awesome job with it. I miss being able to snap a bayonet on my AR! That may be the only reason I buy a 16" Middy. :D

Seeing as how we're working with 4150 milspec barrel steel and whatever alloy the muzzle device is manufactured from, how real is the "screwing up the heat treat" argument? Do these alloys have a heat treat floor of only a couple hundred degrees higher than the silver solder or is it much higher (several hundred degrees, 1,000 degrees perhaps)? Does the silver soldering process affect the chromelining of the bore underneath the heated area?

If there's plenty of margin to begin with between the barrel steel's heat treat floor and the silver solder melting point, and if there's no affect on the CL, then this argument is moot.

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Originally Posted by jmart

Seeing as how we're working with 4150 milspec barrel steel and whatever alloy the muzzle device is manufactured from, how real is the "screwing up the heat treat" argument? Do these alloys have a heat treat floor of only a couple hundred degrees higher than the silver solder or is it much higher (several hundred degrees, 1,000 degrees perhaps)? Does the silver soldering process affect the chromelining of the bore underneath the heated area?

If there's plenty of margin to begin with between the barrel steel's heat treat floor and the silver solder melting point, and if there's no affect on the CL, then this argument is moot.

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The torch is hotter than 1100F

You guys can keep making excuses for crappy AR15 builds.

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Originally Posted by jmart

Seeing as how we're working with 4150 milspec barrel steel and whatever alloy the muzzle device is manufactured from, how real is the "screwing up the heat treat" argument? Do these alloys have a heat treat floor of only a couple hundred degrees higher than the silver solder or is it much higher (several hundred degrees, 1,000 degrees perhaps)? Does the silver soldering process affect the chromelining of the bore underneath the heated area?

If there's plenty of margin to begin with between the barrel steel's heat treat floor and the silver solder melting point, and if there's no affect on the CL, then this argument is moot.

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There are two types of silver solder, low temp (around 600 deg) and hi-temp (around 1200 deg).
Since the Batfe requirement for silver solder is that it must exceed 1100 degrees, you are supposed to use the 1200 degree stuff.

The heat treat damage floor for chromoly steels is around 1100 degrees.
100 degrees above that and you are surely beginning to anneal the barrel steel.
At 1600 degrees, the steel will be fully annealed.

Add to the fact that most people won't know the difference between 1200 and 1400 when heating up a piece of steel and you have an even larger likelyhood of fully annealing the muzzle of the barrel while silver soldering a muzzle device on it.

Now, will the barrel be damaged to the point of negative results from being annealed?
That's a whole different topic of discussion...

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Originally Posted by AR15barrels

There are two types of silver solder, low temp (around 600 deg) and hi-temp (around 1200 deg).
Since the Batfe requirement for silver solder is that it must exceed 1100 degrees, you are supposed to use the 1200 degree stuff.

The heat treat damage floor for chromoly steels is around 1100 degrees.
100 degrees above that and you are surely beginning to anneal the barrel steel.
At 1600 degrees, the steel will be fully annealed.

Add to the fact that most people won't know the difference between 1200 and 1400 when heating up a piece of steel and you have an even larger likelyhood of fully annealing the muzzle of the barrel while silver soldering a muzzle device on it.

Now, will the barrel be damaged to the point of negative results from being annealed?
That's a whole different topic of discussion...

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I asked my questions with the assumptions that the individual performing this is skilled at this procedure, i.e., a professional. I'm not assuming sending it off to the WECSOG crowd.

I called Brownells earlier today before posting this question and the tech person told me to pack the bore with grease to prevent damaging the bore. He said it would be very messy.

I've tried to permanently attach a flash hider with silver soldered and a MAPP torch and it was a major PITA. I've played around with silver solder and thought how hard can this be? The hardest part is estimating the temperature. The color of steel at 1100 degrees fahrenheit depending on who's chart your looking can be described as a dull cherry, dull red cherry, blood cherry, blood red, or dark cherry. WTF? It's not a color that's in a box of crayons. At 1200-1300 degrees, it's a medium cherry. 1400 degrees is cherry or full cherry.

Not hot enough and the solder won't melt, too hot and it flows out of the threads. That's not even touching on the importance of surface prep.

Been there, tried that. Not worth the trouble.

Yeah, I just sent my back to ADCO to have them pin and weld it. Should arrive this morning.

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Originally Posted by scottryan

You guys can keep making excuses for crappy AR15 builds.

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Mr. Rausch has conducted a professional AR technical discussion without kicking much in the way of baseless opinion about people and editorializing, concentrating instead on describing the process and providing examples. Let's be generous and say you've benefitted the discussion by providing a stark contrast to Mr Rausch.

Randall, thanks; you've answered some stuff I've been forgetting to ask for some time now.

I've pinned and welded only a few flash suppressors but would never do the silver solder due to the ATF heat requirement. But I have to say after seeing that picture posted by develdoglib. That person didn't know what they were doing. I've done a few silver solder jobs putting sights on shotguns that were parkerized. You parker first, carefully file, grind away parkerizing on the area to be soldered, tin your piece first, apply chalk to areas that you don't want solder to stick to, and use a low temp silver solder. Cosmetics are intact and the sights wont fall of. I'm not a professional, but get to play one in my garage LOL.

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Originally Posted by scottryan

Reasons:

...It makes you a wannabe.

It ruins the value of your gun.

Buy a 16" barrel or SBR instead.

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I guess I'm a wannabe for building an M4gery using the BCM 14.5" upper with pinned FH. I guess the fact that I wanted to closely replicate the weight and handling characteristic of an M4 does make me a wanna be.

I am also currently the Team Chief/Leader of a 6-man element that is part of an Airborne Army Reserve unit which may be deploying in the next couple of years to some mountainous country.

Oh yeah. I'm a wannabe. :rolleyes: