Anyone over here have one?? Ben thinking about having a barrel made.
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Anyone over here have one?? Ben thinking about having a barrel made.
I too was considering having a barrel made in 30 HRT caliber...
It's a fine wildcat, however, It doesn't provide a substantial
Improvement over the x39mm...with new commercial steel
cased ammo in bulk so cheap, as well as bulk brass cased
ammo at $7-$10 per box in bulk, I figured building a x39mm
upper was going to be much more cost effective.
A quality chambered barrel blank is going to cost you at least
$300, and then send it to G'smith to have it threaded, fitted,
crowned etc. is going to be in the $150-$200 range.
A decent quality complete upper/kit in x39 cal. can had for $450-$500 delivered.
So it really depends how much you want the 30HRT wildcat, and
are you willing to spend the cash & time needed etc.
Good Luck.
Your right, After more research it's pretty involved getting one up and running. I like the 30 RAR but i don't know what remington is planning to do with it. They can't seem to get there act together on anything.
The 30 RAR is another great round, but as usual Remington has
dropped the ball once again...They have yet to properly market the
round and more Importantly have failed to offer any brass to
reloaders/hunters/target shooters etc.
I would love to use the 30 RAR case as a basis for a .264/6.5mm
wildcat version for the AR-15 platform...but alas, without good
and reliable souces of brass it's a dead horse at this point.
It has real potential @ 44 grains of H2O and would make a great
overall round and a greater wildcat round in 6mm, 6.5mm & 7mm !
Yep, A 6.5 would be awesome!!! I think i'm going to build an Encore barrel in 30 RAR. I have a 30 cal Green Mountain blank that is just sitting there doing nothing. 4D has the reamer for rent for 30.00. HUMMM
Here is the first thing that came up when I googled 30HRT.
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=647
Definitely like the idea of this round.
Before you guys build your 30 HRTs, you might want to read Doc's post here.
I must be missing something.... How is 30HRT even a consideration in ANYONE'S mind given that 300blk and 7.62x40WT exist and even 6.8?
30HRT
* no standard for pressure, loads, gas system, etc (complete wildcat)
* won't work in 223 magazines
* doesn't use a 223 bolt
* doesn't outperform 300blk/WT/6.8/6.5 to any great measurement
* more rare and more expensive
* no factory ammo or support
* tiny niche aftermarket support
Seems like an absolute non-starter... What am I missing about this?
Pressure would be same as the 6.8.
Any gas system would work just like a 5.56, car, mid or rifle
uses 6.8 mags and bolts, never seen the big deal with using 556 bolts
It IS faster than a 300 BLK/or whisper by over 200fps with the same weight bullets.
Reloading would be apx the same cost as the 6.8 unless using fmj 30 cals then it would cost less.
Some just want a 30 cal, look at the 300BLK/whisper
I still like the idea of this round. I allready have 30 herret dies and lots of 6.8 brass. I have no reason to shoot subsonic and it would be a hunting round only, and i found a guy in SC that has a reamer and gauges to set it up. Send him a barrel blank and extension and he will turn, thread and chamber it for you.
I've got one with a 20" barrel made by Teppo Jutsu. I had it built specifically for hunting. I like the cartridge a lot, and it'll do 2550fps with 125gr and 2350fps with 150gr bullets easily. I'm sure if you spent some time with quickload and a handful of powders you could best that even more. Those numbers are exactly what you would get out of a factory 30-30, which is a little behind what you can get out of the .30RAR. For something that is a low volume of fire hunting rig I don't care that it takes a bit to load ammo. I haven't played with it for a couple years due to multiple moves for work.....I think I have finally fixed that and hope to get it back out this summer and fully ready for deer hunting in the fall. I am planning to cut the barrel back to 18" and have ADCO ball dimple the barrel to get the balance more to my liking for my "brush gun". Forming brass isn't always as simple as people say. The SSA brass that I have needs to have the necks outside turned or you get a .013" donut that form at the base of the neck causing pressure spikes. Remy and Hornady brass have had no such complaints to my knowledge and are usually a 1-pass and trim to length. In general 150gr boattails are too long to be loaded to mag length, but most flat base are good to go. that means you won't be able to load cheap surplus fmj to cannelure or to full speed if you seat them deeper. I really like the 125gr Sierra pro-hunter in this and want to try some of the 110gr and 130gr Barnes TSX. Like I said earlier I really like mine and can't wait to get it into the woods....but it is a complete wildcat that may have some quirks you'll need to iron out.
advntrjnky
According to the information at the link provided, from a 16" barrel the performance of the HRT is rather close to that of the 300BLK
depends what you call close. the 30HRT can best the 300blk by 200fps in most usable supersonic bullet weights......but the 30 hrt is still a complete wildcat and the blackout is a SAAMI commercial cartridge. the performance of the 30hrt is equal to the factory 30-30win, and the 300blk is equal to the Russian 7.62x39. Are they close? yes. Are they identical? No. The 30hrt fit my want for a compact 30cal semi-auto brush gun for hunting whitetail deer that made power similar to the 30-30win. IMHO the 300whisper, 300blk, .300fireball. .30/.221, 7.62x40, 7.62x39, 30RAR and 30hrt would have all done the job just as well. I chose the 30hrt and I like the performance it gives in the size/weight/ balance rifle it is chambered in.
advntrjnky
From the linked site-
That's pretty close to 300 BLK velocitiesQuote:
What type of velocity can I expect?
Velocity will vary from rifle to rifle and obviously also depend on the bullet that is being loaded. Some of the velocities recorded from a 16” barreled upper are as follows:
110 grain bullet – about 2500 fps
125 grain bullet – about 2200 fps
168 grain bullet – about 1800 fps
240 grain bullet – about 1000 fps
From the linked site-
That's pretty close to 300 BLK velocities.Quote:
What type of velocity can I expect?
Velocity will vary from rifle to rifle and obviously also depend on the bullet that is being loaded. Some of the velocities recorded from a 16” barreled upper are as follows:
110 grain bullet – about 2500 fps
125 grain bullet – about 2200 fps
168 grain bullet – about 1800 fps
240 grain bullet – about 1000 fps
Maybe the HRT does better with longer barrels than the BLK?
Below is a graph showing energy versus distance out to 500 yards for select rounds of 30 HRT, 6.8, 30-30, 300 BLK and 223 for comparison. I just picked a few rounds that had readily available data and did not intend to pick the best or worst for each caliber. The MV and BC data were from various manufacturer's websites except for the .223 where I'm using actual chrono results. The data were generated by JMB ballistics software using default temp, pressure, and elevation. I set the chrono to 5'. If anyone has data to refute the info below, please post and I'll update the chart.
I was rather surprised by the performance of the 30HRT out to 150+ yards. After that the difference betweent the HRT and 6.8 diminishes with the 6.8 having the advantage at longer ranges. For me, the difference isn't worth the hassle of reloading and fireforming brass, but it may be for others.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/n...BLKvothers.jpg
Energy in ft lbs. and distance in yards
The MVs and BC data I'm using for inputs are as follows:
30 HRT 125 gr Spitzer: 2500 fps; BC .279
30 HRT 150 gr Spitzer: 2350 fps; BC .336
6.8 SPC 120 gr SST: 2460 fps; BC .400 (considered "generous" by many)
6.8 SPC 110 gr Nosler Accubond: 2550 fps; BC .370
300 BLK 110 gr V-MAX: 2300 fps; BC 0.290
300 BLK 130 gr Barnes TTS: 2200 fps; BC 0.350
30-30 Win 150 gr RN: 2390 fps; BC .186
223/5.56 77 gr SMK: 2640 fps; BC .362
You don't fireform 30HRT brass.
Trim the 6.8 case and run it in a 30 Herrett die...done
Fair enough. I was using the info provided in the prior link:
"Making 30HRT cases (by Krochus)
Case forming is a pretty straightforward process. Lots of lube and if available the use of a form/trim die can greatly simplify things.
For me the case forming process takes a few distinct steps:
- Run a NEW (used cases have a very high failure rate due to neck cracking on initial fireform) 6.8spc case into the form/trim die and cut off the excess with a hacksaw and them chamfer
- Size this partially formed case in your 30Herrett die
- Finish trim to 1.695" (I prefer to trim shorter)
- You might get by without this step with new cases but I prefer to anneal before loading
- Load and fireform using a mid to full powered loading"
I am extremely skeptical of the above chart's validity.
First off, what are the barrel lengths used for calculation? 300blk uses a saami of 16" where most other calibers use 24". Why would anyone assume those numbers are directly comparable?
Second, 30HRT is a wildcat. There is NO SPEC for it, so putting it in a chart along with factory 300blk is questionable. Same for the 223 77gr SMK, is that someone's handload or mk262?
I'm coming off as a defender of 300blk I know, but that's not it. I wouldn't trust those 30-30 numbers, I don't believe 6.8 retains THAT much more energy than 30-30 or 223, etc.
That chart is extremely suspect.
The chart was generated using JBM's online trajectory/ballistics calculator with the inputs as specified in my reply. The MVs and BCs were taken from MFRs websites (16" BBL for 6.8 SPC and 300 BLK) except for the 30HRT and 223 data. The MV for the former was gleaned from the ARF site, but the BCs are MFR inputs. The latter chronographed by me using Black Hills ammo out of an 18" Noveske barrel and I used Sierra's BC for MV of 2500-2800 fps. Of course, all are G1 BCs.
There are lots of widely available chrono data on the 6.8 and 30-30, but I didn't spend a lot of time compiling these numbers. As I mentioned, if you have different data than what I used for the inputs, let me know and I'll regenerate the graph.
This is typically how these things go - someone says "The such and such wildcat is XXX fps faster than the 300 BLK." What they don't tell you is that they are comparing factory 300 BLK ammo loaded to 55,000 psi and a 2.245 OAL with hot-loaded ammo at 65,000 psi and 2.3 OAL.
For example, loaded to equal pressure, 7.62x40mm is not the 200 fps faster than the 300 BLK as been claimed, but more like 85 fps faster.
30 HRT - I am not exactly sure, but a quick QuickLoad simulation is looking like 150 fps faster than 300 BLK if both are loaded to 55,000 psi.
That being said, I like the idea of the 30 HRT except it would require special magazines, and the brass should be made shorter to be more optimal for the Barnes 130 grain and the Nosler 125 grain bullet. So, if someone does a 30 SPC or 6.8-30, I hope they make this change.
Chrono still doesn't mean much if you're direct comparing wildcats, factory saami rounds, and over-pressure loads. 16" and X muzzle velocity doesn't mean anything unless all the rounds are loaded to standard or lesser pressures. If saami spec of the gun is 55,000psi, all that ammo has to be confirmed to be at or under before they can be compared.
IF that 120gr 6.8 ammo example is over-pressure and that .4 BC is generous, it could start looking at LOT like that 110 300blk round on the chart. Still higher and stronger of course, it's got a larger volume, but is it enough to warrant a custom bolt, magazines, barrel, and no subsonic option? Not for me it's not. That's how I feel about the 30hrt but with even less factory support.
rsilver's comments about equal loaded pressure are more what I was getting at.
All that said, my problem is with charts like that that can be VERY misleading to someone who copies and pastes it somewhere without knowing those are apples to oranges comparisons. I understand you mean no harm, but that chart could easily be looked at as fact, and it is not proven to be at all.
Hornady would not print specs for overpressure ammo. I would trust their 2460 velocity as valid. The 0.400 BC would need to be checked to be sure.
300 BLK 110 grain - is 2400 fps at 55,000 psi all day long as verified on SAAMI pressure test barrels. Hornady rates theirs at 2375 fps. 2300 fps is more of a starting load. 2400 fps is the correct number to use.
I understand what Rsilvers was getting at RE: overpressure.
Here is an updated graph. I removed the 30-30, 110 gr 6.8 (since the data may be an overpressure loading from SSA) and the 130 gr 300 for simplicity. I changed 300 BLK 110 gr MV to Rsilvers recommendation of 2400 FPS. Additionally, I replaced the 150 gr HRT with 125 gr at 2450 FPS to more or less generate a confidence band for that bullet at two different velocities.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/n...Kvothers-1.jpg
My comparisons were not meant to compare 300 BLK to 30 HRT, rather 30 HRT to 6.8 SPC as I did not see the benefit compared to the time and hassle to reload. My prior post linking to Dr. Roberts' discussion on page one of this thread further reinforces the point.
I didn't see where that was Hornady ammo, my bad. .400 does seem pretty high at least for a .270 bullet short enough to work in a 1:11" twist and fit in an AR mag. I have no idea how one would figure if it's a correct BC. I'm out of my element now, I'll shut up.
I just didn't feel like that chart was, right. The new one looks much better, but I still have trouble with that 6.8, doesn't look correct compared to the others.
There are several ways to check BC. You can shoot it on Doppler radar. You can shoot through two chronographs. You can see if it drops more at distance than calculated. You can time the bullet at various ranges.
My sense is that the true BC of this bullet is probably close to 0.400.
Have you tested that 30HRT load for pressure? How do you guess it's 65,000PSI? USWAG? You love to throw that 65 and 70000 psi thing around when anyone states a velocity compared to the 300 Whisper.
65-70000 psi will seriously mess up a case in a AR.
A 58,000psi 556 M193 load will swipe the brass and start cratering the primers. I don't know anyone that shoots a load that craters primers as a normal load. 2500fps is a normal everyday load out of an old 308 6 goove 10 twist 16" barrel from 2007. 55-58000psi ...probably
The 30 HRT uses 6.8 mags not "special" mags.
FYI. this is what a 70,000psi proof load looks like after being fired in a AR.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...8proofload.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...7/DSC_0375.jpg
Did you really just post that?
That is a Hornady proof load used to make sure the barrel and bolt will withstand a 70,000 psi charge so it doesn't break if it gets an over charged load. Any higher pressure will rupture the case as you can see the case is already bulging above the groove. If the case ruptures all of the pressure will be released into the carrier and mag well and destroy the rifle whether the bolt or barrel fail or not. If anyone was to size the case so there was NO play between the back of the case and the face of the bolt it would make no difference at all. The spec that says the ammo should be sized from .000-.008 below the go gauge is to make sure there is enough room for the bolt to lock in.
The go gauge fits the no go does not. The chamber was obviously large enough for the cartridge to go in and the bolt to lock behind it.
I can assure you the barrel bore area is larger than the SAAMI spec for a 6.8 much larger than the 10 twist barrels that are on the market.
ETA-
"The standard proof test consist of firing two overloaded cartridges that produce 25% more chamber pressure then the C.I.P. specified maximum pressure limit for the same cartridge in its commercial version. The standard proof of pistol, revolver and rimfire cartridges is performed with overloaded cartridges that produce 30% more chamber pressure than the C.I.P maximum pressure limit for the same cartridge in its commercial version. There are only two overloaded firings to avoid excessive stress to the arm, especially the barrel which is the main part suffering this overload beside the chamber (when not part of the barrel) and the locking mechanism. After the test, the arm is disassembled by the proof house technicians for nondestructive testing looking for Magnetic flux leakage through fluoroscopic lamp in a dark room. Many manufacturers, including Glock Ges.m.b.H., package the casings from a firearm's proof ammunition in a sealed envelope accompanying the firearm so that authorities in C.I.P.-signatory states and civilian purchasers in other countries can conduct an independent examination if they desire.
Before the year 2006 the standard test consisted of firing two overloaded cartridges producing 30% more chamber pressure then the C.I.P. specified maximum chamber gas pressure limit for the same cartridge in its commercial version.
Voluntarily testing beyond the current legally required standard test benchmark is often also possible for consumers who intend the use their firearms under extreme conditions (hot climates, long strings of shots, etc.). In case a firearm passes such a proof-test a pass mark termed superior proof mark is stamped in every successfully tested firearm."
It's funny to me that it took the standardization of the whisper as the blackout to finally give us a good supply of factory produced barrels that we can rechamber into HRT's as the very reason the HRT exists is to solve the subsonic lack-of-gas problem that subsonic loaded carbine gassed whisper barrels have.
I had the first two sets of headspace gauges ground for it, one set for Marty and one set for me...
A carbon length gas system on a 16-inch the 300 BLK/Whisper is only useful for guns that are set up to shoot primarily supersonic loads. A properly set up 16 inch barrel with a pistol length gas system will shoot subsonic loads with bullets weighing 150 to 240 gn. It will also shoot super sonic loads and only give up about 25-50 fps to the carbine length gas system. Moreover, a correctly designed gas system will not need an adjustable gas block either, and will work with powders like 2400, W296, H110, A#9, Lil'Gun, 4227, A1680, and 4198. Did I leave one out?