7.62 NATO, Semi-Auto, "sniper" rifle

Here's what I'm looking for:

- A semi-auto rifle, chambered for 7.62 NATO, that won't choke on .308 Winchester ammo
- Needs to accept 20 round magazines, & have 5 round magazines available
- I want to be able to have excellent accuracy out to at least 600 meters
- It has to be able to take down deer-sized animals at that same distance (assuming I am good enough to hit them, of course :p )
- I need to be able to mount a scope that will allow me to be precise out to at least 600 meters
- Ideally, it will accept a suppressor
- It can't cost an arm and a leg...

I'm fairly new to the ins and outs of 7.62 / .308 rifles, so don't assume I know anything about anything. Having said that, I grew up hunting with my Dad, some of which was deer hunting. I used a semi-auto 308 Winchester for the few years that I hunted deer, so while I'm not a complete noob, please feel free to pretend I am... :cool:

Any and all suggestions will be much appreciated!

I'm running a DPMS with a 16 inch barrel as my precision rig at work and the department has two as well. Mine started life as an AP4 and if i was to do it over would've done some things a little different. Anyway, the final combination has a JP VTAC forearm, harris bipod, Burris Scope, and a Bill Springfield Trigger. I swapped out the collapsible stock for an A2.

I would have started with a DPMS with an A2 stock and an 18 inch barrel that I would have then had fluted to reduce weight, increase stiffness and surface area.

I just got back from MO school with it and was keeping up with the bolt guns in grouping exercises and in tactical exercises with multiple targets or center mass shots, the semi auto was easier to use quickly. There were some guys that could really work a bolt and match speed but they had to work a lot harder.

Unfortunately I had an issue with it and did not get to use it during the long range session on the last day in which we shot out to 700 yards.

The best thing I did to the gun was sending the trigger to Bill Springfield for a 3 lb job. His trigger job compared favorably with the Remington trigger with a little more takeup being the only difference. The gun would group before, but the trigger job made it much easier and consistent and all for $45.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jgalt

Here's what I'm looking for:

- A semi-auto rifle, chambered for 7.62 NATO, that won't choke on .308 Winchester ammo
- Needs to accept 20 round magazines, & have 5 round magazines available
- I want to be able to have excellent accuracy out to at least 600 meters
- It has to be able to take down deer-sized animals at that same distance (assuming I am good enough to hit them, of course :p )
- I need to be able to mount a scope that will allow me to be precise out to at least 600 meters
- Ideally, it will accept a suppressor
- It can't cost an arm and a leg...

I'm fairly new to the ins and outs of 7.62 / .308 rifles, so don't assume I know anything about anything. Having said that, I grew up hunting with my Dad, some of which was deer hunting. I used a semi-auto 308 Winchester for the few years that I hunted deer, so while I'm not a complete noob, please feel free to pretend I am... :cool:

Any and all suggestions will be much appreciated!

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Define "arm and a leg" - AR10s/SR25/SASS guns are just expensive...unfortunately

I suppose I should have been a bit more descriptive about what "an arm and a leg" means to me...

I'm considering getting a Springfield "Scout-Squad" or a "Loaded" and would have no problem spending the $1500-1700 it'll take to get one of them. Anything around $2000 is getting to be too much right now, and $2500 and up definitely qualifies as both an arm & a leg.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jgalt

I suppose I should have been a bit more descriptive about what "an arm and a leg" means to me...

I'm considering getting a Springfield "Scout-Squad" or a "Loaded" and would have no problem spending the $1500-1700 it'll take to get one of them. Anything around $2000 is getting to be too much right now, and $2500 and up definitely qualifies as both an arm & a leg.

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With your criterion above, I'd skip the Scout/Loaded all together and get an AR10. If thats too expensive, just save money for a longer period of time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Derek_Connor

With your criterion above, I'd skip the Scout/Loaded all together and get an AR10. If thats too expensive, just save money for a longer period of time.

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I am starting to think that I may end up with both, with the AR10 filling the bill for the above criteria, and the Springfield doing hunting duty. Do you know if the same magazines would work on both? I remember reading somewhere that some AR10 & M1A / M14 mags are interchangeable, but I've also read that they aren't. I need a definitive answer - anyone know?

Thanks.

No, mags are not interchangeable between an AR-10 or a M14.

Your above criteria is going to be extremely hard to fill, especially in that price range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Templar

No, mags are not interchangeable between an AR-10 or a M14.

Your above criteria is going to be extremely hard to fill, especially in that price range.

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Thanks on the mag info (twice!). I thought my criteria would probably be hard to meet, given what is basically a sub-$2,000 budget, but I really didn't know, so I figured I'd ask.

Thanks again.

I may be a lone wolf on this, but I'd skip the AR10 and go for an M1A Scout. The Loaded will be more accurate at extended ranges, but with what you describe, the Scout will suit your needs. You won;t win, or even compete at Camp Perry with a Scout, but the handiness of the 18" rifle is a bonus. Get good with the irons and you can build up from there. If you want to keep it clean, a Sadlak scope mount will suit you nicely, but if you want to add utility to a great platform, dropping the rifle into a Troy MCS will bring it to a whole new level....USGI mags are cheap and easy to find as they are still in production. i say go M1A and never look back....

What do you consider excellent accuracy out to 600 yards? For semi-auto I don't think you can expect much better than 2MOA and have the type of weight/reliability you'd want. 2MOA is plenty accurate though a "sniper" would probably want something more.

If you accept that as baseline I recommend a DSA SA 58 FN-FAL clone.

I have one set up kind of how you described. It as a DSA Scope mount/rail system. G1 chrome lined barrel, trijicon ACOG 3x scope. It can shoot under 2MOA. INCLUDING SCOPE, rails, refinishing by Gunplumber and mount it comes in at about $2.2K. A comparable AR/M14 is WAY more. I've taken it hunting and would be perfectly capable of taking deer or elk.

First it's a top quality military quality rifle, produced on original Steyr machinery/designs. Fully loaded standard FAL comes in at just over 10 lbs. The receiver is milled from a 19lb block of billet steel and is incredibly durable. The commercial Springfield M1A receiver is not adequate for your needs. They look nice, and are adequate for average use, but they're not mil-spec (whatever that means in this day and age) as such.

(side note - If you want the M-14 variant consider ARMSCORP or Fulton Armory receiver/rifles. Sometimes you can pick a receiver that has double-lugs which makes for a more stable "sniper" platform These are comparable in price to ARs, but you do get what you pay for.)

Second, replacement parts and spare mags for the FAL are readily available and CHEAP. They do have 5 round hunting magazines as well as 20 round originals. AR .308 mags are lots more expensive. FAL mags can be had for about $8 each.

Third, it's brutally reliable once tuned. It has an adjustable gas system that is ideal for a suppressor. The AR can be finicky with a suppressor.

Fourth it's one of the easiest long-arms to maintain. It lends itself perfectly to the amateur gunsmith (WECSOGer). I've built two. You can fix them easily yourself. The FAL is much easier to clean/maintain in the field than either the M1A or the AR.

Both the M-14 and AR will have better inherent accuracy, but the FAL has other virtues and is perfectly adequate in terms of accuracy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MassMark

USGI mags are cheap and easy to find as they are still in production. i say go M1A and never look back....

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Where can I find these USGI mags that are cheap? I can't say that I've scoured the internet, but I have looked a bit and don't find any under around $40 a pop, usually closer to $50. I'm in no way doubting they are out there, I just want to know where... :D

Thanks!

midway: http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe...341***12517***

and 44mag.com has them cheap too plus if you live in a ban state they'll dissasemble them for you for a $1.50 a mag

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jgalt

Where can I find these USGI mags that are cheap? I can't say that I've scoured the internet, but I have looked a bit and don't find any under around $40 a pop, usually closer to $50. I'm in no way doubting they are out there, I just want to know where... :D

Thanks!

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Try www.44mag.com

They sell Checkmate mags for something like $25.00.

Checkmate are the current military contractors for the M14 magazines, and they're great, not to be confused with the M9 mags.

The only one right now that isn't going to be impossibly expensive or hard to mount optics on is the PTR-91. I think CDNN still has them for $900.

But fair warning, they're filthy rifles, and a paddle release (highly worth it) is going to run around $200.

I think they're the only "cheap" semi-auto option in town that you can mount optics on.

As usual a boltgun is going to be twice as accurate for half the money.

I'd have to say either an AR platform or bolt gun. Probably the best 2 options when considering price v. accuracy. I personally would lean towards the AR platform, as I prefer semi's. Though I have seen PTR's like Aurang suggested post some nice accuracy out to 300 yards.

To clarify Templar's post, some AR-10 converted mags will work with the M1A or M14. Though it's not universal, and the current, and SUPERIOR, Gen II Armalite AR-10 mags will not work at all in the M14/M1A.

I have mags that were converted from M14 mags long ago, and they will still operate in the M14, but I don't think they hold the bolt open when they are empty -- due to the follower being changed.

A standard M14 mag will not stay in the magwell of an AR-10, since there is no mag release notch cut on a standard USGI M14 mag.

Hope that helps...

BTW, I would recommend an Armalite AR-10 to fit your needs. The DPMS meets most of your criteria except for 20rd mags.

I'd like a gun as described in OP as well, but will be waiting to see what FN and Magpul deliver.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jgalt

Here's what I'm looking for:

- A semi-auto rifle, chambered for 7.62 NATO, that won't choke on .308 Winchester ammo
- Needs to accept 20 round magazines, & have 5 round magazines available
- I want to be able to have excellent accuracy out to at least 600 meters
- It has to be able to take down deer-sized animals at that same distance (assuming I am good enough to hit them, of course :p )
- I need to be able to mount a scope that will allow me to be precise out to at least 600 meters
- Ideally, it will accept a suppressor
- It can't cost an arm and a leg...

I'm fairly new to the ins and outs of 7.62 / .308 rifles, so don't assume I know anything about anything. Having said that, I grew up hunting with my Dad, some of which was deer hunting. I used a semi-auto 308 Winchester for the few years that I hunted deer, so while I'm not a complete noob, please feel free to pretend I am... :cool:

Any and all suggestions will be much appreciated!

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Well, here's mine. It will fill most of your requirements except it won't mount a suppressor in it's current configuration (never had a need for one and don't care to jump through the ATF hoops either) and it's probably a bit more than what you want to spend on it. I really don't have an accurate idea how much it cost me since I built it up over the years with parts I could find that fit my needs and some things like the McMillian stock are from the USMC DMR contract over-run bedded in Devcon that doesn't break down requiring re-bedding and the Brookfield mount isn't made anymore and going to be a LOT more expensive these days if you can even find one. However, it's 100% reliable with anything it is fed and DEADLY accurate! When I lived in North Daktoa, I used it to pick off deer in my sunflower fields out to 665 yards (verified with a Leica 1200 range finder) to date without any problems or a need for a second shot.
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...25DMRClone.jpg

These are mine - and they will accept a sound suppressor :)

http://www.athenswater.com/images/LITEM21A5s.jpg


DETAILS

http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=GMA9827 Heres a link to a springfield armory M1A with there extended cluster rail (even though its pictured on a SOCOM), if you dont like the bottom rail it can be easily removed or you could use it with a bipod. It is a solid platform for optics and the loaded M1As will shoot well out to 600 yards with decent glass. Also if you want to put a can on it AAC and YHM both make flash hiders for the full sized M1A that will accept their fast atatch cans (make sure that if you really need to suppress your rifle you get the full size rifle since it has a USGI M14 thread pitch, the scout and SOCOM have different thread pitches from and the flash hiders wont fit them).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jgalt

Here's what I'm looking for:

- A semi-auto rifle, chambered for 7.62 NATO, that won't choke on .308 Winchester ammo
- Needs to accept 20 round magazines, & have 5 round magazines available
- I want to be able to have excellent accuracy out to at least 600 meters
- It has to be able to take down deer-sized animals at that same distance (assuming I am good enough to hit them, of course :p )
- I need to be able to mount a scope that will allow me to be precise out to at least 600 meters
- Ideally, it will accept a suppressor
- It can't cost an arm and a leg...

I'm fairly new to the ins and outs of 7.62 / .308 rifles, so don't assume I know anything about anything. Having said that, I grew up hunting with my Dad, some of which was deer hunting. I used a semi-auto 308 Winchester for the few years that I hunted deer, so while I'm not a complete noob, please feel free to pretend I am... :cool:

Any and all suggestions will be much appreciated!

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AR10, no doubt about it. Accurate, mine will shoot MOA out to 500m, with decent ammo. Get the Armalite scope mount, worth more than its weight in gold. I picked mine up slightly used for $1500. add the $120. or so for the mount and a decent scope and your done for under $2000. With over3000 rounds through it I have never had a hiccup. Armalite has their mags on special for about $25. apiece. Last time I shot at 500m, from a rest, 168 grain Hornady A-Max bullets gave me consistant 7" groups and a couple really good 5 1/2" groups.

:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H2O MAN

These are mine - and they will accept a sound suppressor :)

http://www.athenswater.com/images/LITE-SDM.jpg


DETAILS

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oh man those are sweet!!!!!:D

Here's mine. :) Including optic and refinishing was about $2100. Consistently shoots 2MOA with mil-surp which is more than good enough for me.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...n/DSC_1100.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...n/DSC_1099.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...n/DSC_1098.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...n/DSC_1103.jpg

With Magpul PRS:

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...n/DSC_0626.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...n/DSC_0619.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nathanm40a1

Also if you want to put a can on it AAC and YHM both make flash hiders for the full sized M1A that will accept their fast atatch cans (make sure that if you really need to suppress your rifle you get the full size rifle since it has a USGI M14 thread pitch, the scout and SOCOM have different thread pitches from and the flash hiders wont fit them).

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The Scout and the standard have the same USGI thread pitch, the SOCOM is different.

Putting a sound suppressor on an M14 is fairly easy with an SEI/FEI DC can, SEI DC Vortex and SEI GLFS.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/Fi...I.30calcan.jpg

ill weigh in for the 'right' M1A , and a well setup FAL , i shoot those ....ok , not well ,
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...ifles001-1.jpg
this has worked for me in every instance ,

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r.../FN-FAL003.jpg
i have high hopes for this as i get it set up ,

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...srifles003.jpg
this is fine to 200 , its 223/556x45 so its what i need for that

#1 M1A +1 (but look for one with a hi GI parts counts) Those new factory ones with cast parts dont cut it for me.

#2 DSA Fal or any pre-ban Fal

Option 3:

Keep your fingers crossed and hope the SCAR-H comes out soon and is priced outragously.

Go with the AR10, and stick with their Gen2 mags, you won't have any problems. I have an M1A as well, love both, but like the AR10 better for scope business.

Chester
Amen, have an FAL and an M1A, however the AR-10 for long range is much more precise. They have or had a special on their Gen II mags, like 25 bucks each.

Note: The LAW483 M14 MCS by TROY solves the optics issues on the M14.
The M14 MCS transforms the M14 into a flat top and allows the use of B.U.I.S.
and AR grips & butt stocks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H2O MAN

Note: The LAW483 M14 MCS by TROY solves the optics issues on the M14.
The M14 MCS transforms the M14 into a flat top and allows the use of B.U.I.S.
and AR grips & butt stocks.

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Can you give us a run-down on the pricing? It seems like a VERY good solution for those who have already chosen the M1A or M14 as a starting point, but comparing new buyers who need to buy the base weapon, isn't it a lot more expensive to go this route?

Contact Tony Lawrence @ LAW483 for detailed information. Tony designed the MCS.



BTW, the M39 EMR is replacing the M14 DMR in the Marine Corps.
The M39 EMR utilizes a special SAGE EBR stock.

a trusty M14 will do the trick!

R700? At my local Gander Mtn they had an R700 with 6-24x magnification scope on it for I think $1200...

I know the 5.56 doesn't cut it in defeating hard cover, but I thought you'd find this interesting (highlight mine):

“The “one shot-one kill” motto of the sniper profession is a fine goal, but that is not the way it worked for us.
...what we encountered were situations where we had multiple targets in front of us at various ranges, and we needed to be able to engage them all very quickly.
The M4s and ammunition we were issued were virtually as accurate and effective out to around 800 meters as the M24 [7.62 bolt-rifle] and M118 [Lake City Match] ammunition.
My rack-grade M4 was modified with a suppressor, a match-grade trigger, and an ACOG sight, and it was making first-round hits at 730 meters! The Mk262 77-grain Black Hills ammunition is by far the preferred ammunition for the M4—it is deadly! It provides reliable first hit incapacitation.
We’ve had incidents where enemy insurgents have been shot and hit in the same place at the same distance with the 77-grain Black Hills round and the standard Army 62-grain bullet; the first guy was dead when he hit the ground, the guy hit with the lighter bullet was patched up and lived.
...every one of the team got rid of the old “green tip” rounds and loaded up our mags with the new ammo.
With our [Army MTU] modified rack-grade carbines, we were able to shoot sub-MOA.”

- Army SSGT James Gilliland, Shadow Team section leader, in Trigger Men, pp.112-113 (note also I got this quotation from a friend, so please forgive if it's not exact)

I don't think anyone here doubts that 5.56 is an effective round with proper shot placement, but I'm not sure I understand the relevance to a semi-auto 7.62 NATO sniper rifle.

Did you mean to put this in another thread?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carbinero

I know the 5.56 doesn't cut it in defeating hard cover, but I thought you'd find this interesting (highlight mine):

“The “one shot-one kill” motto of the sniper profession is a fine goal, but that is not the way it worked for us.
...what we encountered were situations where we had multiple targets in front of us at various ranges, and we needed to be able to engage them all very quickly.
The M4s and ammunition we were issued were virtually as accurate and effective out to around 800 meters as the M24 [7.62 bolt-rifle] and M118 [Lake City Match] ammunition.
My rack-grade M4 was modified with a suppressor, a match-grade trigger, and an ACOG sight, and it was making first-round hits at 730 meters! The Mk262 77-grain Black Hills ammunition is by far the preferred ammunition for the M4—it is deadly! It provides reliable first hit incapacitation.
We’ve had incidents where enemy insurgents have been shot and hit in the same place at the same distance with the 77-grain Black Hills round and the standard Army 62-grain bullet; the first guy was dead when he hit the ground, the guy hit with the lighter bullet was patched up and lived.
...every one of the team got rid of the old “green tip” rounds and loaded up our mags with the new ammo.
With our [Army MTU] modified rack-grade carbines, we were able to shoot sub-MOA.”

- Army SSGT James Gilliland, Shadow Team section leader, in Trigger Men, pp.112-113 (note also I got this quotation from a friend, so please forgive if it's not exact)

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I thought it would be an interesting sidenote, like the pic of the A2 above.

For M14/M1A's, check out this site:

http://www.lrbarms.com/m14receivers.html

They make new forged receivers and you can get a complete rifle from them with quality parts. It's generally more difficult to supress an M14 varient rifle than it is a AR10. As far as I know, Fisher is the only can that can readily be mounted to the M14. I've considered supressing mine but have not bitten that bullet just yet.

LRB Arms and SEI are working together to make complete rifles available.

Here's how it works. You buy a LRB receiver and a parts kit from LRB.
You can supply your own parts kit if you have one.
LRB sends the receiver to your home state FFL and you do the normal 4473/NICS paper work.
If needed, LRB ships the parts kit to Smith Enterprise, Inc.
You then mail your LRB receiver to SEI. SEI then assembles your rifle with a mix of USGI and
SEI parts. The completed SEI/LRB rifle is shipped back to you.

If you want something thats precise to 600 meters, the only rifle that fits the bill is the AR10. The M1A/M14 is just part of the fudd internet mythos as being an accurate tack driver. Any M14 that is capable of shooting sub-MOA is going to be plagued with reliability and durability issues.

If you have a lightfighter account, I would highly advise you to read this thread.
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a...6361003623/p/1

Many very experienced people commented on the fact that an accurized M14 is not much more than a polished turd.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pryde

Any M14 that is capable of shooting sub-MOA is going to be plagued with reliability and durability issues.

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:rolleyes: Now that is a bunch of BS!

Lightfighter is full of so called experienced people that have no idea what a
modernized SEI M14 is and they don't want to learn anything about them.

All of their comments and experience center around old school bedded national match type M14s.


The AR10 is nice, but reliability and accuracy issues continue to plague the platform in the sand box.