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I am working some stages for a local match and would like to include a transition in a couple of them. The shooter would start with an empty rifle that would simulate a malfunction. At the buzzer, the shooter will come up on target and get a click then transition(using a sling). Once the pistol targets are cleared, the shooter will reholster and then load the rifle and engage the rifle targets.
Are there any safety concerns that jump out at anyone?
Sling or barrel?
I would make sure the pistol was empty at the re-holster, or have them put it in a box, on a table etc. People who haven't practiced this in slow motion are dangerous- ad a timer and stress it's even worse.
Sorry, I left that part out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
The shooter would use a sling.
I agree and thus my concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by currahee
My goal was to get people thinking about and practicing a transition safely and correctly. The more I think about shooting matches and having to stage firearms (tables, barrels, etc...) the more I think there is a missed opportunity for increasing proficiency. Not at the expense of safety though.
I dont compete but I want to. Waiting on a good shotgun. One observation though...which is in line with your post is the barrel/box thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by jtc556
I always thought it was odd. I understand safety is paramount...but I always like the thought of practicing for real events. Usings slings or holsters instead of dumping a mag into a box or leaving the weapon on a table. Then again, having never competed I guess I am talking out of my ass.
I like your idea. I hope you can work it out.
Give them the option to re-holster or table the pistol.
Also, make 100% sure the written stage description says exactly what you mean.
Where in Texas will the match be?
It will be in Alpine, TX on May 4th.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Oh ok. That's a bit too far.
How familiar are you with the people who will be participating in your match?
In an open (to the public) shoot this unknown is probably the key reason why guns are abandoned rather than reholstered or slung.
Some matches are an exception and applicants are advised ahead of time that they will be expected to perform these actions. Attendees are more likely have some idea how the equipment works and they have also probably selected appropriate gear.
Some slings will leave the muzzle pointing at the feet of the person carrying it and some will hang the weapons where it flirts with the 180.
You can expect to see a variety of slings, not all of them good.
There are similar considerations on holsters: Holsters with butt forward cant will pose an issue with the 180 during reholster. Some holsters don't stay open well enough to receive the muzzle without using the off hand. Some don't retain the gun well enough for going prone. Having been an RO at open local matches, I've seen problems with these actions 'off the clock' enough to make me leery of asking some of those folks to try it with the timer running.
In some cases the holster is good but the belt is inadequate to support the holster or the shirt gets tangled on the pistol on its way into the holster.
(Know your clientele.) So...we use abandonment boxes/tables. Not that reholstering can't be safely accomplished on the clock, but the level of experience locally doesn't really instill enough confidence to make it a requirement in our stages.
I have written some stages where I had the shooter transition to the handgun after using the shotgun. We placed the abandonment box such that it would strongly encourage the shooter to engage some handgun targets strong hand only until they reach a point where the abandonment takes place.
This makes since.
If you are going to have them have the rifle slung while engaging targets with a pistol I would use a bright colored OBI on the rifle, so there is no doubt about the chamber being empty. I have a yellow OBI that slides into the magazine well and holds the bolt open, which is what I would suggest.
If you have the shooter transition from the pistol to the rifle, I would require them to holster the pistol before engaging with the rifle. If they are not going to fire rounds from the pistol, have them show the magazine well and chamber are empty and let the slide go to full battery without pressing the trigger before holstering.
If you are going to have them transition from one weapon to another and fire live rounds with each one, I would use a barrel for the rifle and a rectangular box mounted to a table for the pistol to ensure the muzzle is pointed down range. The reason I suggest this for the pistol is that I have seen two people shoot themself in the leg while holstering their pistol.
You can always use bright colored rope that hangs out the end of the barrel and bottom of the magazine well of a rifle or pistol if you do not have an OBI available for competitors with different kinds of rifles and handguns.
Why not start with a rifle loaded with say 2 rounds and have the shooter first engage a target with two rounds from the rifle, then transition to pistol. Word the stage description so the shooter must attempt to engage T1 with 2 rounds from his rifle and then transition to pistol. Allow any makeup shots to be done with the pistol. I say two rounds because it would be easy for the RO to quickly inspect the rifle mag for two rounds and only two rounds and know for certain that after two loud noises the chamber is empty.
I would certainly not have any sort of reholstering on the clock, that is just a recipe for disaster.
I almost never have my rifle sling or pistol on me in bed. Just pretend your real life Scenerio when your walking from your bed to the bathroom to take a piss and your pistol is in a table and your rifle isn't slung.
You can't reholster so you have to set it on the table.
We run a 2 gun game called ACTS here in Michigan and we've been hot holstering since 2005 and we've never had issue.
I know a lot of folks are concerned about it, but experience has proven otherwise, that said the R/O needs to keep a good on the shooters.
I used to be all about hot ranges and re-holstering and using slings but then we started getting more and more shooters at our matches and that went away fast. Not everyone is at the same skill level and you have to plan for the lowest common denominator. So I don't like hot re-holstering in a match.Quote:
Originally Posted by G-lock
Pat
Pat-
I hear what your saying but we just haven't found it to be a problem. When folks question it, I ask them if they have a CPL, and did they holster their gun this morning? This seems to turn the light on for most folks. We give a pretty stern lecture about only going as fast as they safely can. Jeff
Murphy's law. If it can happen, it will - and there goes your match.
I have had more guns pointed at me at matches while RO'ing than at work.Quote:
Originally Posted by shootist~
Pat
+1. I have been flagged more at matches than anywhere else I have ever been. I would error on the side of caution when it comes to setting up a stage at a match.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskapopo
abondon, pistol. dump barrels for long guns
You could simply start with the rifle then transition to the pistol. That way you don't have to worry about reholstering at all. I no longer have shooters reholstering on the clock. We have never had a issue with hot holstering but another club did. The shooter that shot himself fail to remove his finger from the triggerguard while holstering. As much as I believe in big boys rules I simply could not take the chance so we did away with hot holstering. What we do now is to either clear the pistol before holstering, deck it, or finish with it. I use stage design to get my desired results. It takes more planning but it great reduces the idiot factor.
Matt
Agreed. And some ranges and sanctioned disciplines prohibit reholstering a loaded pistol while the timer is running.Quote:
Originally Posted by currahee