Can a tier 2 AR/M4 be improved to tier 1 ?

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Originally Posted by yossarian42

Should a stag with plus package be considered made to spec then? The only thing that can think of that could be out of spec if you have the plus package is gas port size and chamber size. Anything else to worry about? Just curious because I thought I was making a good purchase with a stag plus package rifle.




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I, personally, would not consider any Stag anything more than a fun-only plinker....regardless of the option package.

These guns are like seatbelts...I don't want different grade seatbelts. I want a seatbelt that works. If a company sells seatbelts that WILL work and seatbelts that SHOULD work, that doesn't seem very honest to me.

I would rather buy from a company that holds all their products to the same high standards. That's my personal opinion.

With that said, the upgrades can do nothing but help the function and reliability of that Stag.

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Originally Posted by Warp

...but isn't there only ONE manufacturer who has access to the TDP?

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Yes and no. Lots of companies have some form or part of it (though most likely outdated), but they cannot use it (legally) to build an AR.



C4

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Originally Posted by Warp

Does the army manufacture ARs?

Did the army provide other manufacturers with the TDP? If so, which ones, and when?

I am not understanding how this statement addresses me question.

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It doesn't.

Whoever uses the TDP for making actual mil-spec firearms for the military, other than Colt, signs a non-disclosure, and cannot use the TDP for commercial purposes.

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Originally Posted by BufordTJustice

You can consider something "good" or "tier 1" all day. It doesn't make it so.

Failures from non spec parts can happen suddenly and without warning...like a crack or inclusion on a bolt that WOULD have been discovered by HPT/MPI testing...but what you're recommending is that if somebody has a batch-tested item, they should still have just as much confidence in that item. I disagree.

A bolt with an undiscovered flaw could fail AT ANY TIME and there is no way you could know prior to the failure. Same with an extractor that is not made from tool steel and shot peened, same with a barrel made from cheap steel and not HPT/MPI, same with a barrel extension that does not meet required hardness specs (could allow headpsace to grow over time).

You CANNOT KNOW what will fail in a gun that is not made to spec. CANNOT KNOW. At least with milspec there are safeguards due to using specific, high quality materials, tight tolerances, and specific assembly techniques. Buying a gun that does not adhere to these standards is a GAMBLE.

You are advocating that if somebody has a substandard gun that may be used for defensive purposes that they should just "trust" that gun after a certain number of rounds.

There is a reason that Pat Rogers "Filthy 14" wasn't a Stag, Bushmaster, DPMS, CMMG, or Olympic Arms. I bet Pat wishes those would work just as well as a BCM/Colt/LMT/DD, since they all cost a LOT less for him to buy. But the fact is, they don't stand up to the abuse like a properly made carbine. You can tout something as "good enough for you" all you want...but trying to push that FAITH onto other people could eventually get somebody hurt or killed.

I never said that any of these guns will "automatically shit the bed". What I did say was that their failure modes are far less predictable than with mil spec guns because set standards have not been employed. What don't you understand about this? You don't know what you don't know about these sub-par guns.

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You're misconstruing what I said. These guns are generally referred to in "tiers" for a reason. That reason is that not every single aspect of the TDP is critical to the basic function of the rifle which makes them "serviceable". That's not elevating "sub par" guns or knocking down the "par", that's stating an empirical fact.

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Originally Posted by das

I looked into a spikes lower to complete the spike upper its a 8-12 mo back order.

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You might want to look around in local gun stores. I know of three within 30 minutes of me that have complete Spikes lowers currently for sale.

If you know what you are doing just get a hold of a stripped Spikes lower receiver and throw in a quality LPK.

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Originally Posted by TheGut

You might want to look around in local gun stores. I know of three within 30 minutes of me that have complete Spikes lowers currently for sale.

If you know what you are doing just get a hold of a stripped Spikes lower receiver and throw in a quality LPK.

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I thought about doing this, went to a lgs here on Long Island and there is some serious gouging going on post election. 230 for a stripped spikes lower. 180 for a stag.


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Originally Posted by yossarian42

I thought about doing this, went to a lgs here on Long Island and there is some serious gouging going on post election. 230 for a stripped spikes lower. 180 for a stag.


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+1 for that. There is some serious gouging going on right now.

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Originally Posted by das

+1 for that. There is some serious gouging going on right now.

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I'll call around to my LGSs when they open this morning. If they have some left I will PM you guys their info so can get it transferred to you if you want? Couple of days ago I saw a complete Spikes lower for 230 and a stripped for 95.

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Originally Posted by yossarian42

I thought about doing this, went to a lgs here on Long Island and there is some serious gouging going on post election. 230 for a stripped spikes lower. 180 for a stag.


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Which store?

Chester's. called hunter today but they only have RRA. That probably the only lower of the popular brands that I def don't want. Heard many times they're a tight fit.


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