P9HST2 is 147gr Federal HST
P9HST4 is 147gr +P Federal HST
Which one would you choose? Why?
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P9HST2 is 147gr Federal HST
P9HST4 is 147gr +P Federal HST
Which one would you choose? Why?
I will put this here before somebody else
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
If its on the list its good to go. If its not, it failed one(or more) parts of the testing.
As far as the 147g+p stuff not being on the list, I dont know. Its possible Doc just hasnt tested it yet.
The 124g+p HST has been removed from the list. I think it used to be there, not sure why its not anymore.
If a particular load is not on the list, then it either failed, was not tested, or a load on the list does better. For instance, Dr. Roberts has said that the standard pressure 124gr Gold Dot does just fine, but the 124gr+P does better and you should go for the +P. You can draw all kinds of conclusions if it is not on the list which may not be accurate. The "list" just gives people a selection of various loads that are proven to work well.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjacobs
In regard to the HST 147gr and 147gr+P. It's the same bullet, just one is thrown faster. Almost every HST 147gr standard pressure load has done well in barrels of 3.5" and longer in ballistics testing. I supposed if you have a barrel length that is shorter than that, then the 147gr+P would be a better choice. The higher velocity doesn't make the bullet expand any bigger, it just makes it more reliable in short barrels and gives it "slightly" better penetration due to the increased momentum. Either way though, the HST kinda sucks at shooting through auto glass.
We have not yet tested the P9HST4.
Were the 124g loads taken off the list or where they never on it and it was just my imagination? I could have sworn the 124+p used to be on the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGKR
I've sen it shot on glass several times, and it did quite well, almost bonded level performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Entropy
ATK Testing Sacramento 2007:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake'sDad
HST 147gr: 9" of penetration through auto glass
GD 147gr: 12" of penetration through auto glass
ATK Testing Santa Clara 2007:
HST 147gr: 7" of penetration through auto glass
SXT 147gr: 9.5" of penetration through auto glass
ATK Testing Riverside 2007:
HST 147gr: 7.75" of penetration through auto glass
GD 147gr: 8.75" of penetration through auto glass
SXT 147gr: 9.75" of penetration through auto glass
ATK Testing Los Angeles 2007:
HST 147gr: 7.5" of penetration through auto glass
SXT 147gr: 10" of penetration through auto glass
ATK Testing Aurora 2008:
HST 147gr: 14.25" of penetration through auto glass
GD 124gr+P: 15.25" of penetration through auto glass
SXT 124gr+P: 9" of penetration through auto glass
ATK Testing Ft. Collins 2008:
HST 147gr: 9.5" of penetration through auto glass
SXT 127gr+P+: 10.75" of penetration through auto glass
GS 147gr: 11.25" of penetration through auto glass
GD 124gr+P: 12.25" of penetration through auto glass
The only test where the HST came close to the FBI minimum penetration requirement of 12" was on the Aurora test which in my opinion was a fluke. So, it is 1 for 6 in good windshield penetration.
As for the Gold Dot, in its various grain weights it was 3 for 4 in good windshield penetration in these tests.
The 9mm in general sucks at windshield penetration which was one of the reasons why the FBI moved away from it in the early 1990s and was discussion in Agent Urey Patrick's "10mm Notes". This is evident in regular jacketed bullet technolgy which breaks apart when it impacts a windshield, loses its momentum, and results in shallow penetration. The 10mm/.40S&W is thicker throughout the length of the bullet, and is able to stay together better through a windshield and it can meet that 12" penetration standard with older jacketed bullet technolgy. Bonded bullets stay together better through a windshield and in 9mm are able to meet that 12" FBI penetration standard. At least for police work, I would use bonded bullets for 9mm which are the Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger Bonded, and Federal Tactical Bonded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Entropy
No doubt bonded bullets will outperform HST in glass. I was just impressed with the HST's performance for a non bonded bullet, as they had good weight retention and didn't have core/jacket separation in the tests I saw, while their bare gel results were far superior. iirc, the ATK rep said the bullet was tweaked a little bit in the last year or two, maybe that would explain it being better in the shoots I've seen. I'll see him at SHOT and ask him.
I don't ever recall seeing the P9HST3 (124+P version of the HST) on Doc's recommended list. I may be wrong. My guess is that he has probably not tested it, as it has performed well in the limited testing I have seen. I would not be hesitant to carry any of the 9mm HST rounds. FWIW, the P9HST1 and P9HST3 are the most readily available HSTvarieties in my area.
The ATK rep that I recently emailed said that the two 147gr projectiles were not the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Entropy
Unless Federal bonded the jacket to the lead core, and then rounded out the nose to make it beefier like they did with their bonded 135gr+P, "tweaking" won't make much difference in its performance against windshields. Their 135gr+P bonded was designed specifically to tackle windhshields. It's harder to make, which is why it is more expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake'sDad
Winchester's 147gr Ranger Talon does better in the windshield tests than the HST. Probably because the jacket is thick around the nose, and it is wrapped deeply into the nose cavity so that the construction is tougher.
Would that be the same “rep” who claimed that Federal XM9HA, loaded with the 147 grain HST projectile, has a muzzle velocity of 1180 fps?Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherneck556
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...ighlight=xm9ha
Tell me, which two bullets pictured below were pulled from P9HST2 and which two bullets were pulled from P9HST4?
http://www.box.net/shared/static/md3sq83izu.jpg
I’ve chronographed multiple lots of both P9HST2 and P9HST4 from a Glock 19 with a 4” barrel. On average, the P9HST4 runs approximately 20 fps faster than the P9HST2 when fired from the Glock 19. BFD.
....
We have scheduled P9HST3 and P9HST4 for testing this year.
Well, I don't know if that's completely fair to say, since the HST and the SXT both do better on glass than some other conventional hollow points. Clearly there have been improvements made in conventional non-bonded ammo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Entropy
Hmmm.... in every shoot I've seen, the 9 147 SXT had complete jacket core separation. When it does penetrate better, it's the core doing so, and the retained weight is substantially reduced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Entropy
Don't know. Which "rep" said that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon
It was Bernie Ness, their federal government rep, that I recall saying the HST had been tweaked since it's introduction. I should have said that before, as I usually ignore claimed statements made by factory "reps" that aren't identified. I'll see him this week at SHOT, so I'll ask and see if my memory is correct. If I'm wrong, I'll amend my post.
Thank you for sharing those results Mo. Info like that is good to know.
I'll take a shot and say bullets one and three are from the +P rounds.
Just found the P9HST1 here in town this weekend for $25 per 50. Not much else on the shelves for carry ammo.Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAT Lt.
Im subscribing to this thread as I'm curious. I have been satisfied with the 124+P rounds but I'm open to learning more about the 147.
For those interested, we have the P9HST2 in stock!
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...ion&key=P9HST2
C4
P9HST2... because it is good enough, and who needs the added recoil of the +P...Quote:
Originally Posted by Falz24
Have either of these been tested yet this year? I've been carrying P9HST4 for awhile now, and I'm just curious to see how its performance compares to the P9HST2 in ballistic gel, with and without denim.Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGKR
I don't ever recall seeing the P9HST3 (124+P version of the HST) on Doc's recommended list. I may be wrong. My guess is that he has probably not tested it, as it has performed well in the limited testing I have seen. I would not be hesitant to carry any of the 9mm HST rounds. FWIW, the P9HST1 and P9HST3 are the most readily available HSTvarieties in my area.
I've seen the P9HST4 demoed by ATK twice. In both cases, the performance was about the same as the non +P 147 grain, the P9HST2.
I got the P9HST2 for this exact reason and I'm comfortable with it. Also tested a box on my glock without a hiccupQuote:
Originally Posted by Glock17JHP
Apologies for the necropost, but Doc did you ever get around to testing the P9HST4 (147 gr +P)? Many thanks.
Not yet.
Sorry to resurrect an old thread....but have you had the chance to test this yet?
See the "New Service Caliber Handgun Tests" thread below. The 147 +P is tested in BG and 4LD. EDIT: Doc has even added glass performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Bird Dog
Ah...so it is.Thanks.
P9HST2 works as well or better than the P9HST4--I see no reason to use the +P version...
Thanks for the reply. I had found a good deal on some of the P9HST4 but ended up buying 2000 rounds of Winchester RA9TA instead. Hard to beat $398 per thousand in this climate.