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I have my first AR (Noveske 7.5" Diplomat) on order and since I am new to this type of weapon, I'd like some help in choosing ammunition that will work best in this 1 in 7" twist, 7.5" 5.56mm stainless barrel. In this short of an SBR, do any of you have any real-life experience (good or bad) that you'd be willing to share?
I really like the heavier Hornady TAP ammo in mine. I've seen good ballistics and in our OIS it has preformed well. We are issued the 60 grn but I carry the 75 grn in mine. Gary Roberts has a lot of info and it can be found in the Ballistics Forum here.
I tend to lean towards the fact that heavier bullets perform better in the shorter barrels and with the Noveske 1/7 barrel you shouldn't have any issues.
Thanks SWATCop good stuff. Anyone else?
I have a 7.5" Rainier Arms on my SBR. I've ran the American Eagle Xm193 though it with no problems.
Most of the ammo that I've been shooting though the SBR are reloads since ammo cost are high and scarce. I've had good results with the match grade ammo when I'm out on the range.
I hope this helps :)
If you don't mind, what is the waiting period on a Diplomat these days?Quote:
Originally Posted by CKettler
Anything out of a barrel that short is going to be pretty useless. I'd just shoot whatever is cheapest and still runs.
Using expensive ammo would be foolish.
Isn't the Noveske Diplomat the King of 7.5" SBRs ? Black Hill ammo test showed accuracy comparable to 16" AR rifles.
Shooters on this site know that accuracy isn't a function of barrel length.Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicKrack
What good is accuracy if the bullet is traveling too slow to accomplish anything? At that barrel length, a 9mm SBR would be better.
I think it'd be useful to qualify what the OP means by "...will work best..."
Reliable function? Accuracy? Terminal ballistics?
There's a big difference between "what wont short stroke my SBR" and "what will be most effective against intermediate barriers out of my SBR".
Well,
If I was an intruder and saw one of those in the Home owner's hands... wouldn't think twice about running as fast as hell. It seems that most Diplomat owners are very happy with their investment thus the unavailability for purchase. I would drop $2500 for one without questions in this moment.
As you can see I am not a specialist or too knowledgeable when it comes to SBRs but I would love to have one of them :)
How much velocity is lost when firing .556 from 7.5" barrel opposed to a 14.5" or 16" carbine? I know this will differ with ammo brand and quality. Just looking for some kind of average comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by markm
I might be wrong, but wasn't the SBR designed for close combat ? Velocity lost in a 7.5" barrel within 25 yards will do the job just fine and rip off Ali Mujahadin's head, no doubt... Personally I would love a Diplomat because it's pure sex :D
http://noveskerifleworks.com/imimg/r-75v-556_1d.jpg
Isn't it like 30-40fps per inch? (think I remember that in the deep recesses of my brain)
7.5" vs. 14.5" = -7" * 40fps = 280fps loss
I'm not sure I'd consider that too much velocity loss (if it's correct) being that the rifle would be mainly used for up close and personal stuff anyways, right?
Zhurdan,
You gave the perfect answer...
Some interesting reading on SBRs and velocity and accuracy:
http://www.bren-ten.com/agtman/id9.html
Ballistics tests conducted in standardized, calibrated ballistic gelatin, as they appeared in the Feb. issue of Guns Magazine:
(Note: The measurements next to the rifle type is the weapon's barrel length)
Federal 50gr. "TNT" Hollow Point
Rifle/Velocity/Penetration
AR15 16"/2958fps./7.5"
HK53 8.3"/2363fps./9.5"
Win 50gr. Ballistic Tips
Rifle/Velocity/Penetration
AR15 16"/3184fps./12.25"
HK53 8.3"/2603fps./15"
Federal 55gr. Hollow Point
Rifle/Velocity/Penetration
AR15 16"/2958fps./11.5"
AR15 14.5"/2972fps./12.5"
M4 11.5"/2802fps./11.5"
M4 10"/2599fps./11"
HK53 8.3"/2365fps./13.5"
Federal 55gr. Tactical Bonded
Rifle/Velocity/Penetration
AR15 16"/2793fps./13.5"
HK53 8.3"/2273fps./16"
So as you can see, velocity and barrel length don't have negative effects on penetration. This holds true with handgun ammo as well. In tests, light, fast rounds tend to expand or fragment at high speeds. The slower rounds tend to penetrate and offer controlled expansion.
Now that reality is out of the way....Quote:
Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection.
The issue with the 7.5 is that it is very likely that the bullet will never get going fast enough to reliably fragment/mushroom/whatever in soft tissue. Meaning, it's effectively putting nothing more than a .22" diameter hole in the target.
This is why Mark says a 9mm in that length would be better. Even if it didn't mushroom/fragment/whatever it would still at least be putting a .33" hole in the target.
The rule of thumb is 50 fps per inch of barrel loss, 7 inches = 350 fps... quite insignificant in a home defense situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhurdan
Hey Rob,
You are the guru when it comes to Noveske stuff. I got my first N4 Recce based on your research. You wouldn't have any sources that carry the Diplomat or Shorty, would you? I would really appreciate the reference.
Yeah, I knew it was something like that. Maybe 30-40fps is for pistols (larger bore diameter). I've been primarily a pistol guy for years, so rifles are new (5-6 years) to me for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicKrack
I think there might be something to this whole "fragmentation" deal though. As rob_s pointed out, poking holes is good, but poking big nasty gooey holes in the BG would be better.
rob_s,
do you think even with a HP there wouldn't be enough velocity around the 2500-2700fps range? (I was considering a 10.5" Noveske, if and when they are in stock again). Honestly though, if it came to really needing a rifle for a bad situation, I'd probably grab the FAL anyways, an SBR'd 5.56 would most likely be a novelty.
Novelty asside, I wouldn't want to be shot with a Diplomat within 75 yards :D
Look, I'm no expert by ANY means, but all I know is that when I was engaged in combat in Iraq during the initial 2003 invasion, I witnessed with my own eyes MANY Fedayeen Saddam fighter taking MULTIPLE hits before they'd finally go down for the count. I was a Marine, so we used the 20" barrel M16A2 (with just irons at the time, as the ACOG was being tested by 3 Marines in each of our infantry platoons) and fired the standard-issue green tip rounds. That's about as high as a muzzle velocity you can get with an assault rifle (generally speaking of course).Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicKrack
Now, it IS true that the little bastards we were killing we all sorts of ****ed up on khat and had also shot themselves up with epinephrine (artificial adrenaline) as well before attacking us, but when you shoot someone in the chest several times, you expect them to die! So when they keep on tickin' and shooting at you, it's rather surprising to say the least. We just didn't anticipate having to shoot someone 6-10 times (give or take) before they'd finally stop fighting and were no longer a threat.
On one occasion my good friend, who was one of the lucky few testing and evaluating the M16A4 and ACOG 4X optic, shot an enemy fighter in the face and was stunned to see the man not go down. He let loose quite a few rounds in frustration at the fighter's chest to make damn sure he would put his ass down, which of course did the trick.
The reason I think this is relevant is because if someone breaks into your house at night, obviously knowing that your home, it's very likely that he (or she) is on some kind of drug(s). Meth seems to be all the rage these days, and those addicted to it seem to go to great lengths in order to get their next fix. So if they break into your house and are high out of their minds on Meth (or something similar), they will likely require more rounds to kill or effectively stop for good. If they are running at you, you might not be able to fire but just a few rounds before they reach you, so you want every round to count and you want them to stop coming at you as fast and soon as possible.
Most likely the 7.5" Diplomat would do the job, but there IS always the possibility that, even at only 10 yards away, the drastically decreased muzzle velocity of the Diplomat might not be enough to stop/kill a methed-up full grown man before he reaches you and, because of his "superhuman" meth-strength, might even over power you and take your gun before he bleeds out.
All I'm saying is just be aware that a drastically decreased muzzle velocity CAN have a rather large impact in a gun fight, even if it's a one-sided gun fight in your favor. I personally feel that for a HD firearm, a good ol' shotgun is always your best bet, as it will stop anybody dead in their tracks, and will also be less likely to over-penetrate walls and other house materials and mistakenly kill others in your home, or your next door neighbors if you just so happen to miss your target.... unless you are using slugs I guess.
That's just my two cents, take it for what it's worth guys. With all that said however, I would personally LOVE to have the Noveske Diplomat because I just think it would be fun as hell to shoot at the range and in classes. But if I were to buy a rifle with a barrel that short for home defense or even for offensive purposes (if my job required it), I would probably go with one in 6.8mm.
Excellent review and response with strong lived experiences to back you up.
I ordered/paid for mine on April 4, 2009 and still don't have a delivery date. Macy at Scottsdale Gun Club (http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/) told me to plan on about 3 months. Then I start the SBR paperwork once I get a serial number.Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicKrack
I'll post a date when it comes in.
Being that is a fully constructed weapon, you will have to file Form 4 right?
This is my first AR; My first SBR; And my first Class 3. So I'm new to all of this. I haven't filled out any paperwork yet. Just burned the charge card and now waiting. Not sure what paperwork is normally required. Ignorance on my part.:confused:
Yes, it is a complete weapon.
Then it will be transferred on a Form 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKettler
Well you're definitely doing it right your first time by buying a Noveske. I wish my first AR would've been of that level of quality, but I didn't know of all the great brands at that time, other than Colt, which I didn't want to shell out the money for at the time (regrettably).Quote:
Originally Posted by CKettler
I quickly learned my lesson, and now only buy quality ARs and quality accessories that have great reputations for reliability and performance.
Drich,
In your opinion which is approved faster? Building an SBR on Form 1 or geting a complete rifle on a Form 4?
It doesn't matter, in my experience. I've done quite a few Forms 1 and 4 over the past couple of decades and had them take anywhere from 4 weeks to 8 months. My last Form 1 was submitted in February of this year and I received my stamp in 44 days. My last Form 4 was submitted last September and I received the stamp in 48 days.Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicKrack
As far as I'm concerned, these are the "good ole days" with regards to NFA turnarounds. Today it seems like people are bitching about waiting a few weeks to get their stamps when it was common to wait several months just a few years ago.
I appreciate everyone's input and I truly value it. As a secondary source, I sent my question to Noveske and got this answer back which I think should be valuable to us all.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKettler
"...first don't use any steel cased ammo, we have seen scratched chambers from doing so. We like the 77gr black hills ammo and the Hornady 75gr TAP, both shoot under 1MOA out of the 7 1/2". Now, I shoot a 10.5" and I like to go with lighter gr. bullets to get the velocities back up, I think the same would be true for the 7.5". The longer bullets are designed for high ballistic coefficient long range shooting, I don't think you bought your 7.5" for long range snipping. So I really think it makes since to shoot 55gr or lighter projectiles to get your 200yds and under energies back up. I am a reloader and I have shot all the way down to 40gr. ballistic tips with great success out of the 1 in 7 twist. High quality ammo will usually shoot cleaner and be more consistent for grouping. I hope this info helps."
Ordered the 10.5 Shorty Low Profile complete upper yesterday. The wait begins... I am going with Form 1 as I will SBR my existing Noveske Lower. Any engravers in the Montana area???
I second the sentiments about the good old 12ga. for home defense. I love my AR's, but with my rem. 870 tactical with reduced recoil 00 buck, I can guarantee it will only take 1 round for a home invasion perp to go out in a body bag with NO shooting back.
12 gauge sounds good. This way you don't have to face him again in Civil court... Usually after the recovery, the intruder sues for everything you owe and the funny thing is that they win some of the cases. Sad but true.
Picked up a full LWRC M6A2 10.5" SRT SBR gas piston driven upper on Gunbroker. Anyone got one of these? Can't seem to find any rating or feedback on them.
I was at the Scottsdale Gun Club this afternoon and saw that they had just put a brand new Noveske 10.5" :D complete rifle up on the wall. It won't last long. I believe it was posted at $2,199. I bought my 7.5" Diplomat from Macy, and I know others on this forum have had good luck with Kyle too.
Scottsdale Gun Club
14860 N. Northsight Blvd.
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
Store and Range Hours
Monday - Friday: 10am-8pm
Saturday: 9am* - 7pm
Sunday: 9am* - 7pm
Sales & Range Info
ph: 480-348-1111
fax: 480-348-1113
info@scottsdalegunclub.com
Transfers & Internet Orders (FFL's) Fax to:
Fax: 480-222-4011
A Noveske SBR full rifle is as rare as a white crow these days. Too bad I ordered my Noveske upper allready, not to mention the LWRC gas piston upper I also purchased on Gunbroker. That Noveske Shorty will not last past this weekend!
CKettler,
When you purchased your Diplomat, they had it in the store or preordered it for you?
I purchased it :D and then they ordered it. I am still waiting for it to be delivered.:mad:
Thanks for the reply. Double the wait sucks. I got the Shorty Upper directly from Noveske and will have to wait for it to be made, just like you...