I took my new Sig 556R 7.62x39 rifle out today to review it... and I was surprised by what I found.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXXmpp_T4l4
Questions and comments are welcome.
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I took my new Sig 556R 7.62x39 rifle out today to review it... and I was surprised by what I found.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXXmpp_T4l4
Questions and comments are welcome.
Unfortunately, nothing surprising in your findings, which is a damn shame.
There was a time when Sig was synonymous with quality. I guess it's hard for me to believe their quality has slipped so far.
I really wanted to like this rifle. I want a modern 7.62x39 that takes AK mags and I was hoping this would be it.
Could the light primer strikes be a result of the engineers not putting into consideration the recessed primers that 7.62x39mm naturally have? The SIG556R may need a longer firing pin, but they possibly decided to cheap out and use a 5.56mm pin.
I know 7.62x39mm AR15's have this problem unless you acquire the correct firing pin. I think the Ruger Mini-30's had this problem, too.
I'm going to hold off on one until more reports on this come out and to see if they are addressed. The issue about the folding stock doesn't matter to me, I'll replace it with a DDLES and MOE stock. If we could get a close up pic of the primers from MAC's review we'd be able to tell for sure if they are 556 pins.
This isn't a deal breaker for me, I'll get one eventually. I got an email that SIGUSA is hiring QC and design managers so maybe they are looking to improve the product with some new blood. If they would hire me, you could be sure the quality would improve to Swiss standards or better. There are more good reviews of the 556R than negative so far that it's the law of averages.
Yea, I heard. Still, one has to believe that America can make a better product than anyone, IF THEY WANT TO. But, SIGUSA has to want to achieve that quality first and build a better widget.
ETA: This whole SIGUSA hatred reminds me of Colt 10-20 years back. Their quality went to hell, they were pandering to the Anti-gun lobby, people hated the name Colt and anything they made, especially post-ban rifles and the 80's series 1911 pistols. The pre-ban rifles and lowers commanded a premium but had anti-FA features. Then they made a comeback, turned around their QC and now people buy Colt and the name is quality again.
For me, and for most of the people I can think of, it's not HATE, it's severe disappointment. SIG USA could have easily built a rifle comparable to the Swiss Arms quality, but chose not to. I know this through 1st person documentation.
It's exactly like a DPMS compared to a Colt 6920. They may look almost identical on the outside, but inside, and what they're actually made out of, is entirely different.
My disappointment comes from the knowledge I have of the workings inside of SIG USA and the repeated issues with the guns that they've been producing for about 6/7 years now.
And as with a DPMS carbine, you might get one that runs like a scalded dog, but the chances of you getting a steaming pile of dogshit is much, much higher than it should be.
That's my issue.
MAC, can I also request that you repost your review at the sigarms556 website so our resident expert Ullie and the other 556 members can check out the review and respond? Apparently, Ullie has a line inside SIGUSA and maybe he could recommend design changes? I'm sure the members would want to try and fix the problem and make the platform better for everyone to enjoy.
No surprise. This is exactly why I'm avoiding the Sig 556 family and trying to get a hold of an all-swiss 550/551. If only I could find one for a decent amount. :sad:
I always hear this analogy but aren't the lowers and uppers made by only 2 or 3 defense contractors anyway? The same people that make DPMS lowers make NOVESKE, COLT, Sig, BCM, anyone who uses the standard aluminum forged receivers.....so I discount this argument. AR's are now just a collection of parts thrown together and the quality of the builder is the stamp on the side of the magwell of a good AR, not the parts itself.
SIG has to design and manufacture ALL of their components for their rifles, mainly the 556 series. They cant buy all their major components from a defense contractor, stamp their name on it and call it an AR. I applaud them for this and want them to succeed. I haven't been disappointed in my experiences with SIG products but I'm not a professional and I do not rely on them as a "Serious" carbine. They are for FUN and for shooting and getting outside and blasting! Doesn't anyone shoot for fun anymore or have fun guns anymore?
The days of me having to use one of these guns for it's intended SERIOUS purpose is behind me, now it's all about the FUN. The days of me having a rifle to protect myself 24/7/365 are over, now it's all about which gun is going to the range on the weekend or which one I need to work on, or which one I need to zero. I'm glad that's all I have to worry about now. :sarcastic:
I haven't heard about anything specific to what Sig USA and Cohen did with the 556. Is it posted on here? I agree that hate is not the correct word for me either. I love the look and quality of the originals and I'm disappointed they didn't offer the old and new configurations with the same or better quality. That's why I'm stuck scouring message boards and forums searching for the original, to no avail.
We're speaking different languages and coming at this from very different perspectives.
Firstly, AR's are not all the same, if you would take some time to research this, there is a wealth of information here that has been gathered over the years by people in that regard.
Secondly, I've provided first hand accounts of SIG's attitude towards the 556, how it's not aimed or built for a serious use carbine. They fired a guy who could have built it to Swiss standards because he objected to the dumbing down of the carbine. There have been repeated and numerous issues with reliability and durability with the 556.
If you can't understand that, then I'm just banging my head against the wall and that doesn't feel too good.
One of the major reasons these carbine have issues is that SIG isn't making all the parts. They outsource. Now, for one component, the barrel, that's a good thing as the people who make the barrel are some of the best in the industry.
This forum is not about "fun" carbines. That's a major disconnect that we have over this carbine.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54936
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70019
Please take some time to read the above threads, they do an excellent job in explaining the differences between M4C and a forum like AR15.com
If all your looking for is a fun carbine and it doesn't matter if it goes "click" instead of "bang" when you're on a square range, then go ahead and buy 7 or 8 of these things and have a great time.
If that is what you're looking for, then this site might not be the best fit for you. Sites like SIGForum, FALFiles, TheAKForum, or AR15.com are probably a much better fit for you.
But, the simple fact is that the SIG USA 556 is not a "duty ready" carbine. It might be one day, but not right now.
There's a lot of knowledgeable people who know back stories and have first hand experience with both the Swiss Arms and the SIG USA 556 rifles that have repeatedly explained why the 556 is not up to snuff as a serious use carbine. To simply ignore those people and argue about it is asinine, unless all you're looking for is to have fun at the range with it, in which case you shouldn't be arguing.
I'm not trying to be a dick about this, but arguing that the SIG USA 556 is a serious use carbine as they are currently manufactured, is indefensible.
As a "fun gun", sure, have at it, but not something that people should expect to put in a police cruiser or keep for defense.
There's no way he'd come on a board and go into detail, but the short of it is, he was hired by SIG USA to develop a rifle based on the SIG 550/551 that could be built here in the US. He demonstrated how to do so and maintain Swiss Arms standards without breaking the bank, but there were/are people inside the upper management of SIG USA who wanted to dumb the rifle down, dispense with quality control, and make maximum return on their investments at the cost of said quality control. Much as it's "cheaper" for DPMS and Bushmaster to repair carbines that they know probably won't get shot very much than it is to do it right the first time, SIG USA made that calculation.
He butted heads repeatedly with upper management and Cohen, trying to save the project and make a carbine that was worth of the SIG name, but was ultimately let go.
Are you saying I'm excluded from a site "like this" because I'm not serious enough? I only train once a month with my NG unit and like I said I'm no longer in the active military. To be honest, being a weekend warrior is FUN. Not so much serious.
"to promote a generally collegial atmosphere where the experienced armed professional and the newcomer to shooting can both get something out of the site,"
Can't both casual shooters and professionals coexist on here without there being a class system or caste system? I did not read anywhere in those links where they exclude casual shooters from expressing their opinion, and yes some do have experience like myself.
Are we not equals or are there some here that are "better" than others? By not "trying to be a dick" is like saying "just sayin". I don't see any difference between yourself and I and I do not look down upon you. I'd like to be treated in somewhat the same respect. I have been nothing but cordial to you in the past and was never "trying to be a dick" at any time. I don't like anyone trying to be a dick more than I would like to try being a dick to someone else.
I guess that's the difference between us. :big_boss:
It's a damn shame that Sig Sauer is feeding this new business model and giving the customer something that could get them killed. A far cry from the guns imported and produced under the Sigarms name pre 2005. So many lost opportunities for Sig to grab hold of the LE market with a 550/551 clone, or have a continuance of their Federal pistol contracts, but they are losing out left and right here in the US.
Not all opinions are created equal. That is a flawed premise. This type of thinking is why most forums turn into turd farms.Quote:
Are we not equals or are there some here that are "better" than others?
If the 556 is a quality firearm, so is DPMS, Bushmaster the XD and anything by Taurus.
Is that what M4C is coming to?
If the 556 was built to Swiss standards, as it should be, there would be less contention on the issue. It isn't like SIG USA didn't have a well traveled blueprint to follow. They just chose not to, thus removing their end product from "duty class" to "bubba shooting in flip flops and tank top fodder"...
There will never be a reliable 7.62x39mm rifle that takes AK mags, has an optics rail on top of the receiver, and has an improved/ambi selector switch all out of the box.
:suicide:
The ACR is not based on a well proven 30 year old design. It has no TDP that Bushmaster intentionally poops on. I think everyone expects it to have gremlins.
This is very different than what SIG USA decided to do. Where they know what the standard is, they just choose to ignore it and release garbage...on purpose.
If someone gets lost on an uncharted trail, I can be understanding at least. However, to get lost on a charted path when you have a map, GPS and compass just because you decided to ignore it all, that is unforgivable because that level of stupidity is a crime.
I don't blame him. I'd like to read the particulars about exactly what happened and what they changed from the original design to produce the Sig USA piles of junk they're selling now. How did they get permission from Swiss Arms to produce such a pile of junk? Someone from the parent company should have put the smackdown on the idiots who destroyed it.
I love that bitchin' AK introduction.
ETA: I just love the Military Arms channel. Wish you'd post pics here though. YouTube makes my computer freeze.
Enough. This is not the board for that kind of carbine. This has been hashed out ad naseum. Time and again we go over this and explain the differences and that it's a false economy, no one is talking about a $2500 AR, when you can get a very acceptable working carbine for $900.00 or less.
That argument just doesn't hold water.
I believe there is a difference between being "objective" and being a "dick." I believe the former, not the latter is what applies in this case.
That all ARs come from the "same place" is but a myth--as confirmed by Todd.
I think most here would wholeheartedly agree with that statement, but as previously mentioned, this website is not about "fun guns." This website is about defensive tools on which your life may depend in a bad situation. That's not to say that fun guns don't have their place.Quote:
There is also a significant difference in price and a significant difference in need. Not everyone needs a $2500 rifle to shoot a $.50 cent paper target every weekend.
OP, thanks for that video review. I did not really know anything about SIG rifles; I assumed they were "quality" and reliable, but I guess that isn't the case. I'll share this video with others, so that it may help them.
Phazuka, please check your pm's.
Back on topic...
I bought a Sig 556 way back when some of the parts were still Swiss. Even then, there were obvious deficiencies introduced by Sig USA. It isn't an awful rifle (I'd certainly take it over a DPMS However), but it isn't really a serious rifle either. I've done a good deal of part swapping with as many Swiss parts as I can afford and keep it within 922r compliance. Even so, the rifle has been 100% for a few thousand rounds (maybe 3k).
In 2008, I bought a second one (I have no clue why). The second rifle was an abomination. There were literally welds missing. Had I not owned one of the earlier ones, I'd have never known this. Sig USA's response? "That's the way we do it now". It also had all of the known bolt carrier and trunion issues. Since Sig wouldn't fix it, I sold it at a small loss. I was actually mocked on other gun forums for getting rid of an obviously defective gun. It was actually pretty pathetic.
If Sig could get their shit together, the 556 has the potential to be a decent platform. However, I'd still take a quality AR-15 over a Sig 551.
In short, for I would probably trust my Sig 556 in a competition. I wouldn't take it beyond that. I wouldn't trust anyone else's Sig 556 to shoot a dirt clod.
So this is the 2nd company Cohen has ruined?
Bushmaster does not make the ACR in the same factories as the ARs ( at least that was true -- with BM closing their Maine facility I don't know where things are being made any more ). The Remington ACR and the Bushmaster ACR are made at the same factory by the same people using the same parts (mostly). Since Remington and Bushmaster are now owned by the same parent, it is more likely that the Bushmaster name is being used on the ACR for the civilian version, not that Bushmaster is necessarily doing the actual manufacture. (this is gleaned from conversations I had at the BM and Remington booths at the SHOT Show in Jan 2010).
The first was Kimber, right?