building a new AR and useing a billet lower and want the best LPK. are the RRA LPK's any good ? no 2 stage or adjustables and prefer to have standard springs
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building a new AR and useing a billet lower and want the best LPK. are the RRA LPK's any good ? no 2 stage or adjustables and prefer to have standard springs
LMT LPK from Grant fills that need.
See options here.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=852
what makes the LMT better than the $60.00 RRA LPK ? :confused:
I don't know how much better the lmt is vs the rra, I do know that a rock river arms lower doesn't have a mil spec buffer and their best kits involve the 2 stage nm trigger and a lot of folks aren't very fond of that. They also don't do a few of the things with their uppers that LMT will do with theirs. I see it as a fool me once, fool me twice type thing. I just think reputation alone and peace of mind can be worth a few dooolars on setup.
I would basically go with a LMT basic kit for around 70 bones or the one with the magpul trigger gaurd for a bit more. Than i would slap a timney trigger in there.
I have a rra lower that I got with a rifle and sold the upper to. It's always worked just fine. I also just bought a sun devil billet lower and I am in the process of putting it together with LMT and timney trigger parts. I also bought a wilson combat bolt catch.
I'm not sure that any kit is going to be the very best for every single part in it vs. another kit. I do know that LMT is a top mfg and is usually right on time with their products. I love my LMT upper and I'm satisfied that the company is doing the right things to produce good products.
Besides if you use the lmt parts kit you can put that in your posts and even the kewl kids will oooo and ahhh.
I've asked that question before and I was told the difference is quality. The LMT parts are apparently manufactured to a specification that is outlined in the TDP. I, however, have not seen anyone produce empirical data which indicates that the RRA parts have a higher failure rate than the LMT parts. Since the price difference is over double, one has to wonder what level of performance they will be getting above that of the RRA. Unfortunately, there seems to be no data to indicate what that level may be.
With bolts, the price difference between a HP/MP bolt and one that is not is less than 10%. The price difference in LPK's is over 200%. Personally, I'm more than comfortable (even in a protracted firefight) with my RRA LPK. The cost/quality ratio just doesn't support going with the LMT. Unless, of course, someone has the empirical data to support a different cost/quality ratio (i.e. the RRA parts fail twice as often as the LMT parts).
For me QC is the big issue with LPK. I have not used a LMT LPK but have been using COLT LP's for a few years now. The CMT/Stag LPKs I've used have almost all had a part that was out of spec. IE on one the Pivot and take down pins were useless, as in super monkey jizz lube and a sledge wouldn't have made them go in. I won't go into all the details of the problems I've had with various LPK's over the years but I just got sick of dealing with it. Colt Lps have been 100% perfect so far.
Thanks for the observations. Would you mind indicating how many builds we are referring to and the number of CMT/Stag LPK's you've tried vs. the Colt's? I'm am seriously trying to put together some statistics based on experience so we have some kind of empirical evidence.
My experience is very limited. I've used three Stag lowers and put RRA LPK's in them and had no issue with fit or function on the LPK's.
It'd be nice if someone like Pat Rogers chimed in with their documented experience on LPK failures by make.
Karl
Yes It would be nice if Pat would weigh in on this. that's EXACTLY the imput that would settle this . so if your out there Pat please give me the benifit of your knolage on this . I would like to do it right the first time .:D
I've been trying to find out what happened to Pat, and why he no longer frequents this forum anymore?
so the Colt LPK is the best ? I thought all Colt AR lowere were large pin units,do they make a standard small pin LPK ? I'd pay $85.00 for a Colt standard small pin LPK if I knew where to get it .:confused:
Grant do you sell the LMT LPK? I didn't see it on your website. I thought they only come with their lower assembly. Please correct me if i'm wrong.
great that's what I needed to know . so the Stag LPK at $65.00 is out of spec ? I was under the impression Stag/CMT made the LPK for Colt, at least that's what a vendor has told me. I will spend more to get the Colt or LMT if they are indeed better . what I was going to do is lightly polish up the contact points lube it and install it . how deep is the heat treating to harden the parts,I don't want to F them up .:confused:
Number of builds, about 30 give or take. I have tried a total of 3DPMS I got when back when I figured an LPK is an LPK. It was junk so I took it back and they replaced it, then this one was even worse so again I went back and got yet another that was not as bad as the first two and i made it work with some effort and spares I had.
I did 1 build on an RRA kit for my brother who really wanted the RRA kit because he "heard" they made the "bestest" 2 stage trigger. That one went together fine although the trigger took a dump after about a year.
CMT kits I've done maybe 10 or so builds with. They were fine at first but then I started getting some that were about as bad as the DPMS LPKs. So I stopped trying to save money and bought COLT lower parts. I'd rather pay extra for the quality and QC then keep going through the headaches with the others.YMMV. FWIW I have not yet tried the LMT LPKs and would certainly like to.
Bingo! so demand has driven down quality on the CMT LPK's while they try to maintain the lower price...It's the same thing with their lowers and tight mag wells etc. That has been my experience. What about Bushy?
Where are people buying the Colt LPK's found some on google. but wonder is there a perferred place to go, Grant do you sell them?
The last two builds I put together using ArmaLite stripped lowers & CMT/STAG LPK's went together fine, but the front takedown pins had alot of play in them (The entire pin could be rotated a few degrees past what I have been used to). It is good to now have the option of the LMT "Basic" kit, so I can choose the trigger/grip/etc. for future builds.
I don't think you understand my friend. The Colt small pin LPK can be had at SAW for $175 (the cheapest I have seen). The LMT is $152. You aren't just paying 15%-25% more, you are paying 200%-300% more for a LPK.
From my perspective, as long as the RRA LPK's continue to provide the fit and function I have experienced in the past, then I will continue to use their product. As I have so often indicated within the discussions of LPK's, there is currently no solid empirical evidence to suggest that the Colt/LMT kits provide a 200%-300% increase in reliability over the RRA. For me the cost/value ratio just doesn't justify that particular expenditure. But I certainly can appreciate why folks would be willing to go with the Colt/LMT kits.
And Warrior, thanks for the data. That's the best fit and function data I've seen provided to date. Now if I could just find some failure rate data. BTW, I am in agreement on the 2-stage RRA trigger, it is problematic at best. I personally prefer stock triggers, but then 27 years in the Army gave me that appreciation. :-)
No problem man. I think if they went together fine your probobly GTG. I've only had 2 failures where lower parts actually broke in use. One was the bolt catch that popped out witha broken roll pin and bolt catch. the other was related to a lower that stress cracked down the side during a 3 gun when I dropped to prone, so it's hard to say wether or not the LPK was to blame since it was probebly the lower cracking that caused it.
Well, I am not sure just yet, but I think that we will be able to offer something in between Stag prices and LMT prices with quality being towards the LMT side.
I have been fed up lately with the lack of quality parts and having to pay a small fortune for the good ones.
C4
Yes on the LMT parts.
I will give you an example of an issue I have had with other LPK's. The flat in the selector where the rear of the trigger rides is not machined properly to allow two stage triggers to fit. LMT and Colt Selectors work perfectly.
Most people never see these things because they either only use one type of trigger group or have only used one or two LPK's. We must see 30-50 LPK's a month. In the case of the LMT LPK's we offer, we hand assemble each pack (as they do not come as one unit from LMT). So a lot of hands on and eye balling goes on with them.
C4
I may have to get one of those LMT kits !!!
Absolutely on the 2 stages. I have been running Guiselle triggers lately and per instructions it states to check for rubbing on the selector and even filing down the flats on the side to eliminate rubbing. Thankfully all my lowers have Colt LPK's except for my LMTs that came assembled. I can't say enough good things about the Guiselle triggers, expensive but absolutely worth every penny.
Just remember that a lot of small parts are not made on-site by the gun compaines. Springs, pins, and other assorted items are made by an out sourced company. Colt, BM, RRA or anyone elese maybe using some of the same parts. Sometimes it's easier to buy from another company then to make your own. (tooling cost, ect)
PGM makes a lot of these parts. http://www.pgmcorp.com/source/markets/mil.html
Yankee Hill Machine makes parts for the firearms makers that you won't find on their web site.
Good luck on your quest.
This is a late response on a circle topic thats always the question... what LPK to buy..
Now this is just my opinion, from my experience using colt in the field as an operator and now running my personal rifles..
RRA used to be a solely trigger company, making mil spec LPKs, if you do enough research you will find that out.. how about just call the company ...
LMT is good , RRA is good , Stag is good and so is Colt and so on... their tolerances and spec are all equal to a degree, to the avg shooter
you wouldnt notice it until you run those parts to the same level you ran your other parts before you can accurately say something is better than another... alot of these companies play the market which is also another factor.. supply and demand keep that in mind.
I personal bought a X rifle and put thousands of rounds through that weapon system to a level of failure... see where I am going with this..
I have a RRA LPK 10xxx rounds later it runs just as good or if not better than my service colt...
just my two cents, dont get hung up on the names and prices of parts, try to research and understand them first..
FC
I don't doubt that an RRA lpk CAN last as long as a colt, etc.; it's the extra steps companies like colt take to ensure you're getting the best.