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I've been researching them for a while. Kind of expensive. Any of you have any experience with them, and their gas piston system? They would appear to be top notch..? I did a search and nothing came up so I thought I'd bring up the topic. How do they compare to the other high end AR systems (LaRue, Noveske, LWRC etc.)
Thanks in advance
Great end product (reliability (100%), accuracy(.75 - 1 MOA) & finish), premium price ($3k), long lead time (8 months)....but I do love my SPR/DMR build:Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMindTricks
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z.../MP_SPR_RT.jpg
Only drawback is some feedback (did not experience this myself) regarding poor customer service.
I would do it all again...
Zef, please no high-jacks.
This is a POF thread.
Thanks
Edited by Va_Dinger.
I have seen a couple of POF rifles in various classes. They looked like very nice builds and ran with zero issues.
I would buy one.
I have seen of some good ones and some bad ones. If you do a search there are some reports of them not being 100%...but that's just like everything else I guess.
I would have bought one a couple of years ago if the had standard height rail system. I don't care for the extra SIR type top rail. DD made some prototype rails for them but they never went into production AFAIK. They had them in a VIS too but I don't think they were ever produced either. Oh well.
Don't believe the hype about "no lube required". I didn't design it or anything...but hey, it's a FAL gas system with hard chrome inside the upper. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know it still needs lube.
How do they compare to LWRC, or LMT's piston system. Also fit and finish compared to the others. There is a LWRC M4 flat top on Gun broker right now for $1300. Used but appears to be in mint. I want to jump on it but I want to compare. Any issues with LWRC rifles? Are they top notch as well? There price sure reflects this.... Are they worth the money, or should I get a basic LMT M4 flat top, and upgrade the piston system later?
I would rather have an LWRC, because of the parts commonality and reputation for reliability. I own one, and it's a well built gun. I had some slight issues with it but the company jumped through hoops to make it right. Also, the rail height is that same as a standard AR which is one of my gripes about the POF. If you can buy one for $1300 buy it now. Otherwise you will be waiting 20 weeks. You could flip it for more money f you decide against it later. I have a lot of faith in LMT but nobody has one yet so there is very little evidence of it's function. If it works I will get one of them, also. I drink the piston Kool-Aid. I'd rather have a 416 than any of them but I don't have that option.
I would rather buy a piston gun than convert a DI gun. They were designed as piston guns and the parts are made to. The conversions don't give me a warm and fuzzy.
LMT makes great DI AR's. Grant had a couple for sale at $1,250 recently. I understand that only the LMT MRP (mono-rail) can be retrofitted with the piston system. If that's the case your figure would just about buy the upper - only. While I am not sure, you may want to double check before parting with your $1,300. LMT's piston system is brand new, no real LT reliability data would be available, but I have no doubt they have tested the crap out of it. Grant at G&R can surely fill us in.Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMindTricks
I do not own LWRC, but have heard they are good. This smells a lot like a Chevy Ford debate to me.
Can only speak first hand to POF, would highly recommend them based on what I have experienced & seen with my own eyes. I (personally) am not convinced I really needed a piston system...my Noveske SBR DI system is also 100% reliable...only thing for sure is that pistons are cleaner, esp. with heavy use.
Jedi/VA_Dinger,
In my humble experience, I have seen several POF's break and stop during carbine classes. One was being used by an instructor that was all about the POF until it failed to work in the middle of a demo. Another POF I found at a gun store around the corner, the owner asked me to look at, the cool looking flash hider on it, a vortex style, no not a vortex had snapped off as he was putting it on the shelf. In my humble experience I have had no good experiences with them worth spending my hard earned money on. On the other hand I have two LWRC's that i have run through several high round classes and they run. Thank you.
-Zef M.:cool:
Some info to ponder over
Are you guys trying to say that LWRC rifles do not break? How many rounds do you have through yours? Well this guy has 25K, and his has broken A LOT. I remember a similar thread from a LWRC owner with +10K through his rifle.
These are the ONLY two LWRC owners that I’ve seen speak of high round counts and neither rifle seemed to have held up all that well.
Look at the parts he has broken in less than 30k rounds:
- Gas key screws
- Various "springs"
- Gas block pins
- Breaking firing pins (numerous) not to mention still an ongoing problem
- "some other stuff"
- Now it won't run at all
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...f=118&t=370094
I am not trying to say that either platform is perfect, maybe the magpul masada will fix all our problems? In my limited experience with only two LWRC's I would chose it over other platforms until HK starts selling the 416's, lol, later!
-ZM:cool:
Ok, key words there.Quote:
Originally Posted by abnartyguy
mark5pt56,
I'm starting to agree with mpardun,"This smells a lot like a Chevy Ford debate to me." Good luck to all drivers.
-ZM:cool:
Let's be fair...I bet any gun would have had issues with what he did...Colt, HK, LWRC, POF, etc.
I know of a few bad LWRCs for sure...I own one. But I have seen a decent size sample of them perform well also.
Quote:
I run it mainly 95% F/A and the last 10-15K have all been suppressed. The last 17-18K have only been wolf poly, 55 or 62 grain, with the 7-8k before that, 80% wolf the rest surplus. Somewhere between 25-30k have been run through my upper.
He seems pretty happy with it.Quote:
IMO LWRC pistons are the best offered right now.
I have a POF 16" and love it. It had issues with the first PMAG's but none with the current models. It is heavier than most AR's out there but not a real issue because I don't carry it around everyday. Fit, finish and function have been 100% since I switched to the new PMAG's and accuracy is -1MOA. The major complaint I have had with POF is regarding Chris @ POF, they should definitely get someone else to deal with their customers besides him. +1 POF.
the wait time. My rifle is a DSArms ZM4GTC which is really a 416 POF, it took 4 months to get. Fit and finish are very good. Have not gotten to the range yet but that is in the works. Seems to me a gun, like any mechanical device when used heavily, will sometimes break down and need repair, does not matter what name is on the lable. I would say go for it, piston guns make a whole lota sence. FWIW
Dan
I held one Friday at 2nd Ammendment in Tucson. It is a nice piece.
Chris is Franks son and is actually a pretty nice guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by heijutsu
The first POF we had in the store was flaking chrome lining from the barrel as we pulled it from the box. The customer who special ordered it was not pleased when the rest of it shot out the front in the first 3 rounds. The replacement would not run with anything, until the chamber was reamed and polished, our gunsmith of 24 years standing proclaimed the chamber to be 'severely undersized'.
This was 2 years ago, they may have that all fixed by now.
Much more recently, another customer of mine that comes through on his trips through TN has one that stopped working after several thousand rounds - he took it dirty to a 3-gun competition and it slowed and then stopped. He was shooting it with Wolf, and it got...wait for it...too dirty. The Gas trap area was clogged with carbon, and had to be scrubbed out. He was not amused, to put it mildly - people do not buy piston rifles and anticipate them becoming too dirty to run.
I know 6 other people, personally, who are happy with theirs and have no troubles - I have fired their guns with no issues. All internet secondhand stories disregarded, these are my personal experiences with their rifles. I find the rail to bit a bit bulky by comparison to things that are not an ARMS SIR.
I will not derail this thread as requested, but I will state that I prefer another available system on the market. My own experience with POF causes me to favor of other options.
Current POF barrels are coming with a process similar to Tennifer, so there is no chrome. However, thats the first I've heard of a peeling chrome barrel from POF. It sounds like it wasn't ready to get plated.
As far as dirty weapons not running, thats a non-event that way I see it. I ran a POF without lube, and with a can on it for 500 rounds (hard). The weapon is never going to look as pretty again, but it still ran. The piston was a project getting it out, and getting the piston area and related parts clean took some heavy scrubbing, but its still a machine, and use & abuse obviously creates the need for cleaning.
Talk about sensationalized reporting. I noticed that you didn't bother to mention that the gun hadn't been cleaned in almost 30,000 rounds and the reason it stopped running was "I found that the bolt was full, (I mean not being able to move the FP full) with red wolf primer sealant " and not because something was faulty on the gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark5pt56
While I don't have nearly that kind of round count on my 10.5" M6A2, I hit the 6000 round mark at the Pat Rogers class last week with no cleaning yet, no parts breakage, and no malfunctions that were directly attributed to the weapon itself. I run the gun suppressed with a Gemtech G5 about 50% of the time and shoot Prvi partisan through it almost exclusively. All I do is lube the bolt and carrier every 500 rounds or so.
I plan on running it without cleaning until it stops running or something breaks.
Stephen