Vehicle tactics classes

Printable View

05-09-17, 11:30
Standby

Vehicle tactics classes

I recently saw a forum post where an instructor (not one of ours) questioned the logic of civilians (concealed weapons permit carriers) taking a “vehicle tactics class”. His perspective being that “it’s just a car people, get out of the car and fight with your pistol the same as anywhere else”. It’s an interesting perspective and yes, once you are out of the car, gun fighting is gun fighting BUT… gunfights never go the way you plan them, because you don’t get to make all the decisions. A gunfight normally involves two or more people (otherwise its murder or suicide)...The bad guys get to decide the where, when and how many. What if you have loved ones with you? What if you have a small child in a car seat? What if you have your whole family with you? What if there are two bad guys, one on either side of the car? What if you and your wife / husband or significant other BOTH carry guns, how are you’re going to address each scenario to increase the chances of winning and not in danger each other? What if the bad guys are already on you and have you in their sights BREFOR you get your gun out? What if…what if…what if! How should we negotiate the car seat belt? Sounds simple right (we have seen more than one “operator” fail miserably and therefore lose the fight by getting hung up on the seat belt. What do bullets actually do when they go through windshields, door panels, car seats etc? What tactics can we use to get out of our seatbelt, engage through the car, get out of the car, use of the car for cover or concealment. What is it like to shoot a handgun from the inside of a closed vehicle, to the left, right, forward or rearward? So yes here are MANY reasons a civilian should take good vehicle tactics class. But ultimately the choice is yours take a course or not. But I ask you “how can you believe you have the best chance of winning in this environment when you have NO practical training or experience in it?”
05-09-17, 12:27
GTF425

Quote:

Originally Posted by Standby

I recently saw a forum post where an instructor (not one of ours) questioned the logic of civilians (concealed weapons permit carriers) taking a “vehicle tactics class”. His perspective being that “it’s just a car people, get out of the car and fight with your pistol the same as anywhere else”. It’s an interesting perspective and yes, once you are out of the car, gun fighting is gun fighting BUT… gunfights never go the way you plan them, because you don’t get to make all the decisions.

They're not wrong. A vehicle is nothing more than a piece of terrain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Standby

What if you have loved ones with you? What if you have a small child in a car seat? What if you have your whole family with you? What if there are two bad guys, one on either side of the car? What if you and your wife / husband or significant other BOTH carry guns, how are you’re going to address each scenario to increase the chances of winning and not in danger each other?

Read "Sentinel" by Pat McNamara.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Standby

What if the bad guys are already on you and have you in their sights BREFOR you get your gun out? What if…what if…what if!

Treat it like any other ambush. If you can, blow through the kill zone. If your vehicle is disabled, get away from the giant bullet magnet and use either successive or alternating bounding based on the terrain available and the threat you're dealing with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Standby

How should we negotiate the car seat belt?

Use your non firing hand to release it, insuring you have your other arm out of the way. Keep your body as low as possible when turning to dismount, scan the ground below you, 5 meters behind you, identify your nearest cover, then sprint to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Standby

What do bullets actually do when they go through windshields, door panels, car seats etc?

Load dependent. Basic gist of windshields; if you're shooting out, hold the same point of aim while engaging if possible. The first shot out is basically gone if they're any further than the hood (a 9mm will shoot about 5 feet high at a target 15ft away), but the follow up shots will hit the target so long as they go through the hole made by that first round. I basically press the muzzle as close to the glass as I can and dump rounds. Door panels do **** all to stop bullets, as do car seats.

Axles, engine blocks, and the A frames are really the only "cover" you have with a vehicle, and even then, you need to be moving as aggressively as possible away from a vehicle. But that really is ammo dependent...7.62x39 rips through A frames, while M855 can struggle depending on the vehicle. I wouldn't plan on a car being "cover", it's really just temporarily reinforced concealment.

Shooting in to a windshield, they're going to drop. Slow, heavy bullets will drop more. You can negate this by better matching the angle of the glass you're shooting in to, ie shooting from above at an angle as opposed to straight on.

If shooting in to a vehicle from a side, rounds will tend to ricochet off of a windshield. Otherwise, it's a wild card, but you're safe to assume those doors aren't doing a goddamn thing to help you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Standby

What is it like to shoot a handgun from the inside of a closed vehicle, to the left, right, forward or rearward?

Very loud and smoky.

And yes, you should attend a class. And download a Ranger Handbook to become familiarized with the Battle Drills so you understand the concepts of reacting to and breaking contact.
05-09-17, 17:57
Chameleox

Awesome post, GTF!

My meager suggestion is to look at the course material for the vehicle tactics classes you're interested in. I won't begrudge anyone their choice of what to do with their time, money, ammo, and freedom, but not all vehicles+gunz classes are created equally or the same.

Learning to de-bus multiple shooters under fire against a team of (simulated) adversaries staging a somewhat coordinated attack, or learning to intercept a vehicle, deal with threats, and extract a HVT might be fun and all, but it might not be the best use of your money. If that sort of thing is the weak spot in your Kung Fu, you must really be on top of your game. You might be; I don't know.

OTOH, there's tremendous value in knowing how your skillset and gearset interact with vehicles. You might not be traveling heavy with 3 buddies through hostile territory, but you could get carjacked, take a wrong turn near a riot, or your Uber fare could flip out on you. Plan accordingly, and pick an instructor/class that suits your needs as well as your style.
05-09-17, 18:59
SeriousStudent

I would encourage that person to attend Craig Douglas's VCAS class with an open mind. I suspect that they would leave with very useful input.

I'm not talking smack at all to the instructor mentioned by the OP. Just that Mr Douglas (Southnarc) has a habit of providing excellent training that is very, very useful. Part of his teachings include working in and around vehicles.
05-09-17, 19:10
Inkslinger

Quote:

Originally Posted by Standby

I recently saw a forum post where an instructor (not one of ours) questioned the logic of civilians (concealed weapons permit carriers) taking a “vehicle tactics class”. His perspective being that “it’s just a car people, get out of the car and fight with your pistol the same as anywhere else”. It’s an interesting perspective and yes, once you are out of the car, gun fighting is gun fighting BUT… gunfights never go the way you plan them, because you don’t get to make all the decisions. A gunfight normally involves two or more people (otherwise its murder or suicide)...The bad guys get to decide the where, when and how many. What if you have loved ones with you? What if you have a small child in a car seat? What if you have your whole family with you? What if there are two bad guys, one on either side of the car? What if you and your wife / husband or significant other BOTH carry guns, how are you’re going to address each scenario to increase the chances of winning and not in danger each other? What if the bad guys are already on you and have you in their sights BREFOR you get your gun out? What if…what if…what if! How should we negotiate the car seat belt? Sounds simple right (we have seen more than one “operator” fail miserably and therefore lose the fight by getting hung up on the seat belt. What do bullets actually do when they go through windshields, door panels, car seats etc? What tactics can we use to get out of our seatbelt, engage through the car, get out of the car, use of the car for cover or concealment. What is it like to shoot a handgun from the inside of a closed vehicle, to the left, right, forward or rearward? So yes here are MANY reasons a civilian should take good vehicle tactics class. But ultimately the choice is yours take a course or not. But I ask you “how can you believe you have the best chance of winning in this environment when you have NO practical training or experience in it?”

Most of your hypotheticals can be addressed with your gas pedal more effectively than your pistol. With that said I would absolutely take a vehicle class if you have the opportunity.
05-10-17, 08:31
GTF425

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeriousStudent

Just that Mr Douglas (Southnarc) has a habit of providing excellent training that is very, very useful.

His ECQC class is the best money anyone could spend on training.
05-10-17, 09:57
bighawk

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTF425

His ECQC class is the best money anyone could spend on training.

Good to know. He's teaching this class in my area in a few months I hope I can make it
05-10-17, 10:34
GTF425

Quote:

Originally Posted by bighawk

Good to know. He's teaching this class in my area in a few months I hope I can make it

You'll get a little lumped up, but it's a good time.

I hope you can make it. It's great training.
05-10-17, 11:27
bighawk

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTF425

You'll get a little lumped up, but it's a good time.

I hope you can make it. It's great training.

Will do thanks!
05-10-17, 12:26
26 Inf

The best way to survive a carjacking is to avoid a carjacking. GTF425 posted a lot of tips which would be quit applicable if you were alone, or with a partner; not so applicable if your 5-year old is buckled into the back seat and your infant is strapped into a car seat behind him.

So a good question might be, how do I avoid having one or two armed thugs try to relieve me of my car? It involves planning before the event.

Step one should probably be avoid driving a vehicle that incites others to covet it as their own. Seriously, I know most of us want to express ourselves through our vehicles and other possessions, but try to do so in a manner that doesn't draw undue attention to you or you vehicle. When was the last time you heard of a Ford Focus being jacked?

If you've already thought about the vehicle thing, then you are already on the way to step two, increasing situational awareness when driving. You need to see and COMPREHEND what is going on around you. Think about these things: 1) eliminating blind spots around the vehicle while it is stopped and in motion; 2) 'tactical' space cushion driving; 3) route planning; 4) using the vehicle as a weapon and to escape; 5) commentary driving.

I listed blind spot elimination first because it is a semi-passive prevention that can be put into place. This is a pretty common methodology that is taught by defensive driving instructors. The downside of the method is that you no longer see the sides of your vehicle through your outside mirrors. This is unacceptable for police officers, or any one concerned about their security. The easy fix is small stick on mirrors. Some vehicles have split outside mirrors which can be adjusted to see alongside the vehicle. Using the BGE concept, you should be able to see anyone approaching your vehicle without turning your head, either through your mirrors or direct and peripheral vision. The technique is introduced in this link: http://www.driversedguru.com/driving...s-blind-spots/

Another semi-passive technique is having devices that automatically unlock your doors when the vehicle is placed in park disabled. Drive with your doors locked and windows up.

Space cushion driving is simply leaving yourself an out. It involves blending and moving with traffic so that you always have an escape route to avoid collision. All we need to do is apply these fundamentals as we drive and pull to a stop at intersections.

First of all, you are more susceptible to a carjacking if you are in the outside/right lane. So avoid that lane. Generally, the left lane will give you more options for escape, driving through a center or turn lane, hopping raised medians, or even momentarily driving on the wrong side of the roadway.

As you pull to a stop make sure you leave at least a car length between your vehicle and the vehicle in front of you. This gives you room to maneuver a bit. If you are first in line stop well back from the cross walk, this gives you more room to maneuver before you intrude into the intersection.

Route planning and thinking ahead. If you are practicing good space cushion driving you should no whether the light you are approaching is a fresh red or and old red. At night, if you see a couple of folks loitering on the corner at the intersection, you may want to slow and stop well short of the intersection. This way they have to announce their intent by walking towards you. Forewarned by their action you have time and space to take appropriate actions.

I've already mentioned generally avoiding the outside lane. What to do if you need to turn right? If it is a sketchy area and you don't want to stop in that lane to turn, you may want to go straight through the intersection, circle around a block to the left and then turn left onto the road you wanted to turn right onto. Another tactic is to drive through and either make a u-turn (if legal) or turn around in a business lot, etc. The downfall of these tactics are they take you off the through street.

More to follow got to take the dog to the vet
05-19-17, 15:19
comprido

Where are all of these shooting-through-windshield incidents taking place? There are 14.5 million CCW permit holders in the U.S., and yet I don't see a lot of civilians shooting out of their cars windshields or shooting into windshields (as sure as I typed that, someone will link to a few. That's fine.)

It should be fairly low on your list of training priorities.
05-19-17, 21:43
26 Inf

I think that would depend on your perspective. Officers are sometimes victims of 'Sudden Assault Immediately Upon Stop' (my term) and should know how to manipulate the sidearm in the unit, and engage through the windshield and side windows.

Obviously, there are other things you can do to counter and reduce the success of such an event, I developed vehicle stop protocol which specifically addressed the top five causes of assaults with injury, but let me tell, cops are loathe to change.

I would teach civilians to engage through side windows before windshields, but in reality, drills on weapon handling while buckled in go a long way in developing the mindset.
05-20-17, 20:08
comprido

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Inf

I think that would depend on your perspective. Officers are sometimes victims of 'Sudden Assault Immediately Upon Stop' (my term) and should know how to manipulate the sidearm in the unit, and engage through the windshield and side windows.

Obviously, there are other things you can do to counter and reduce the success of such an event, I developed vehicle stop protocol which specifically addressed the top five causes of assaults with injury, but let me tell, cops are loathe to change.

t.

The OP premise was whether or not civilians needed a vechicle tactic class. Some unnamed trainer said no. I tend to agree.

Cops doing felony traffic stops definitely need to train for shootings inside and around vehicles. No disagreement there.

I say taking one of those classes is low priority for the average CCW permit holder, especially the obligatory shooting through windshield that is conducted at theses classes. More people than every are carrying concealed (non-LEOs), and I just don't hear about the need to shoot from your vehicle.
05-20-17, 20:46
26 Inf

Quote:

Originally Posted by comprido

The OP premise was whether or not civilians needed a vechicle tactic class. Some unnamed trainer said no. I tend to agree.

Cops doing felony traffic stops definitely need to train for shootings inside and around vehicles. No disagreement there.

I say taking one of those classes is low priority for the average CCW permit holder, especially the obligatory shooting through windshield that is conducted at theses classes. More people than every are carrying concealed (non-LEOs), and I just don't hear about the need to shoot from your vehicle.

IF you can not run through an intersection and drive away, IF you are pinned by traffic and they are coming alongside your vehicle, that (engaging from seated in the vehicle) may be the most viable option.

This is why I said with civilians I would focus on weapon handling and side windows first.

Also, as I mentioned, it is a mindset thing, I'd say there is a good possibility one of the reasons you haven't heard about civilians shooting from vehicles is that they have not be indoctrinated/trained to do so.

Dry reps and airsoft/paintball may be just the ticket. I do agree that some courses contain a lot of 'vanity' training, but I would be loath to save shooting from a vehicle is 'vanity' training, assuming the student is competent enough for the training to be of actual use.

JMO.
05-20-17, 23:14
Hmac

This whole gun forum is populated by people who and train and practice, equip themselves, and fantasize about civilian scenarios that are vanishingly unlikely to occur in their daily lives. I think it's hilarious for anyone here to deride any particular training course because that particular scenario is unlikely to happen. It's all unlikely to happen. Armed self defense might be a useful skill some day for some people, but for the vast majority of civilians here, it's mostly just indulging a hobby. Golf is boring. The vehicle course I took with Dave Spaulding was interesting and fun. That's as far as I need to chew on the rationale.
05-21-17, 11:57
26 Inf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hmac

This whole gun forum is populated by people who and train and practice, equip themselves, and fantasize about civilian scenarios that are vanishingly unlikely to occur in their daily lives. I think it's hilarious for anyone here to deride any particular training course because that particular scenario is unlikely to happen. It's all unlikely to happen. Armed self defense might be a useful skill some day for some people, but for the vast majority of civilians here, it's mostly just indulging a hobby. Golf is boring. The vehicle course I took with Dave Spaulding was interesting and fun. That's as far as I need to chew on the rationale.

I agree with you in substance. Some folks live in areas where carjackings are not uncommon. So in those circumstances they might be wise to think about tactics, both with the vehicle, and with the firearm.

When I was doing patrol work as an officer I knew the likelihood of me walking in on an armed robbery at a convenience store was not likely, nonetheless, I made it a habit to drive by to check the location and circle the block to come in from the side when stopping for a coke. I still park as far to the left or right of the entrance as I can, once you have the script running in your head, it becomes second nature.

I'm sure you do similar things in surgery because they are the smart things to do.

Off topic, do you have a new dog pal? I went a month or so after Jayce died and got me a GSD male puppy. Very personable dog and he gets along well with my wife's Lab, She (the Lab not my wife) simply lays down on him when she's tired of his crap. That won't be going on much longer, though, he is growing fast.