HK VP70...The "First" Glock...

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06-11-11, 13:43
SteyrAUG

HK VP70...The "First" Glock...

Ok, what do you think of when somebody says "High capacity, plastic wonder 9 with questionable sights and a crappy trigger"? Did you say "Glock"? If so you might be correct but they weren't the first to produce such a handgun.

HK came out with this one around 1970. This one was just given to me by my wife for our 10th year anniversary after she noticed it was conspicuously absent from my collection. She actually pulled a few of my HK reference books and went through them looking for guns I didn't yet have and then consulted with my friends about which ones would be best for my collection and the best places to find them. I think I married pretty well.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/7970/00000000984.jpg

It was christened the Volks Pistole model 70 (people's pistol - kinda like that car for hippies) though some sources (not HK) claim it stands for Vollautomatische Pistole or "Fully automatic pistol." And this is based upon the fact that there are two VP70 models (the M which is a military select fire version and the Z (Zivil, civilian) version.

Despite being a "pistol for the masses" this one never really caught on, especially in America. And despite being the "first" polymer, high capacity (18+1) on the market it still left a lot to be desired. In addition to having some typical Euro features Americans hate such as the heel mag release and no slide lock (which even most Euro handguns have even if their SMGs do not) it has an abysmal DAO trigger pull similar to many revolver weights. I'm sure HK believed they were making a simple gun at the time.

30 years ago those who regularly carried DA revolvers didn't see too much wrong with the trigger but those who carried 1911s, P38s and Hi Powers generally considered them "god awful." In addition to the trigger (which I think most agree is the main reason the handgun never caught on) it had ridiculously absurd or fantastically advanced sights depending upon who you asked.

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2595/00000000986.jpg

It was basically two polished ramps which created a "shadow" front sight and while interesting I don't think it is something I'd want to toy with in any kind of nighttime defensive shooting scenario. This is one of the few times when I think I'd actually prefer a standard plastic Glock front sight.

And on top of that the whole thing looked and felt kinda like a Hi Point with a big, clunky slide on a small frame. It is about as disproportionally out of balance as a P7M13 only in reverse. If only they could have somehow combined those two pistols they might have really had something.

Criticisms aside, it didn't shoot poorly, especially if the shooter was used to a long pull DA trigger. And it did look interesting in a way, almost futuristic (and it did make it's way into many films such as Aliens as a result). But I don't know a single person who made one their carry gun or a HD weapon. The HKP9S and the later P7 were far more popular.

Now certainly the military "M" version was far more useful in a limited James Bond capacity as a "handgun" SMG which becomes select fire by attaching the stock (which doubles as a holster like old Lugers and P35s). Certainly we made sillier things during the Cold War. And it is probably that pseudo military application which resulted in any of the civilian sales which were made at all.

Other than that the VP70s was far more successful as a concept firearm rather than a production model. In a lot of ways it was sort of like the old Borchardt C-93 where it laid the groundwork for the following successful firearms which borrowed and refined many ideas. Lord only knows what the Glock might have looked like if Gaston had to come up with all those concepts himself for the first time.
06-11-11, 13:52
one

Interesting historical score there. I've thought off and on about adding one to my museum (safe). I've just never gotten around to it.

I wound up trading for a P7 PSP this past week and have been thinking that with so many of the current offerings turning to dismal guessing games of reliability that maybe it's time to pick up a few things from the past that I've been wanting.
06-11-11, 13:56
TOrrock

I shot several of those back in the 80's and early 90's.

They were indeed revolutionary/evolutionary at the time.....a good example of the original HK folks who came from Mauser and adapted the late war designs to post war use....the StG-45 became the G3, the Volkspistole became the VP-70Z.

I believe the largest contract HK ever got on those was with the Swiss gov't for pistols to stockpile in the Alpen bunkers.

Best use of a VP-70........Colonial Marine issue sidearm in Aliens.... :ph34r:

*edited to add.....yeah, you married well.
06-11-11, 14:41
SteyrAUG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Templar

Best use of a VP-70........Colonial Marine issue sidearm in Aliens.... :ph34r:

That's when I first paid attention to one, when I wasn't checking out Cpl. Ferro.
06-11-11, 17:30
JSGlock34

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Now certainly the military "M" version was far more useful in a limited James Bond capacity as a "handgun" SMG which becomes select fire by attaching the stock (which doubles as a holster like old Lugers and P35s). Certainly we made sillier things during the Cold War. And it is probably that pseudo military application which resulted in any of the civilian sales which were made at all.

It is funny you make the James Bond reference. My first introduction to the VP70 was in a 1980s James Bond novel by John Gardner, who was one of the first authors asked to continue Ian Fleming's line of books. Like Fleming, Gardner didn't really know guns, and chose to arm his 'updated' Bond with the high-tech VP70, replacing the venerable Walther PPK.
06-11-11, 17:54
ap1220

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

That's when I first paid attention to one, when I wasn't checking out Cpl. Ferro.

YES, I knew I wasn't the only one! :jester:

OK, now OT.

Fantastic anniversary gift, I've always wanted one. It's on my bucket list.
06-11-11, 18:28
SteyrAUG

Quote:

Originally Posted by ap1220

YES, I knew I wasn't the only one! :jester:

She had me at "We're in the pipe, five by five."
06-11-11, 20:03
omega21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ap1220

YES, I knew I wasn't the only one! :jester:

http://cheezburger.com/Asset/View/4047464448

I had no idea the VP70 was in Aliens till I read the OP. Then I went here and checked out the great shots of that gun:
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Aliens

Classic gun in a classic movie!

"Why don't you put her in charge?!"
06-11-11, 22:44
halo2304

Dang Styer, you beat me to it! I was thinking of posting my "review" of my older H&K models (HK4, VP70Z, P7PSP, P9S) For a few years I thought everyone who owned or tried a VP70 was just a wimp of some kind because they all commented on the crappy, heavy trigger. While mine isn't exactly custom-1911 grade, it certainly wasn't as bad as everyone seemed to be belly aching about...until I tried another one. :eek: Wow! I got a good one! The previous owner must have streched the firing pin spring just slightly to get a better trigger pull.

While the VP70 was the first polymer frame pistol, the Glock was the first commercially successful polymer frame pistol.

The VP70 really is the Rodney Dangerfield of the H&K handguns. :jester: But damn it, if it don't deserve some respect for some of the forward thinking, ahead of it's time features such as the front sight, easily removable firing pin and 18+1 capacity.
06-12-11, 01:04
SeriousStudent

Thou didst marry well, indeed.

Congrats on the anniversary, and the new pistol. I hope you found something just as nice for your better half.
06-12-11, 08:15
ap1220

I forgot to ask in my other post, but didn't it have a really high trigger pull, like 12+ lbs or something like that...I can't remember for sure
06-12-11, 14:52
tpd223

I owned one for several years, even used it as a car gun for awhile.

I liked the small size of the grip, and the compact size of the 18 round mags.

Never found a holster for it outside of the bullshit gun show type generic nylon stuff.

I hated the sights and the cross-bolt safety.

I could live with the heel mag release, not a big deal.

The take-down latch would get rather hot if you put many rounds through it at all.

The trigger did in fact suck, and was worse than any DA revolver I have ever shot other than the Nagant M1895

I liked how simple the parts and construction was. I think if it had been built with a semi pre-cocked striker like a Glock, thus giving a lighter/better trigger pull, it would have been a better pistol.
06-12-11, 15:24
FrankDude72

Good review, SteyrAUG.

What turned me off about the trigger was reading Wiley Clapp's book where he reviewed about 50 9X19mm handguns and listed all the 25 yard groups with 6 different loads.

The VP70 possessed some of the worst groups of all, which (surprise, surprise) was attributed to the trigger.
06-12-11, 17:51
The Dumb Gun Collector

HK could have dominated the market with that gun if they would have spent more time thinking about it as a pistol that could be converted to a machinepistol rather than the opposite. All the elements of the modern pistol are there (other than the light rail, which they invented later).

HK is still (obviously) a leading innovator, but they were really up to some wild stuff in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Of course, crazy crap like this drove them into the red, but look at all the cool toys!:jester:
06-12-11, 17:56
TOrrock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Bell

HK could have dominated the market with that gun if they would have spent more time thinking about it as a pistol that could be converted to a machinepistol rather than the opposite. All the elements of the modern pistol are there (other than the light rail, which they invented later).

HK is still (obviously) a leading innovator, but they were really up to some wild stuff in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Of course, crazy crap like this drove them into the red, but look at all the cool toys!:jester:

Yup, those were the days when HK was being run by the same generation that was at Mauser during WWII and the spirit of innovation and No Compromise really held true.
06-12-11, 18:12
ICANHITHIMMAN

God did you ever pic a good woman very nice gift. I asked my wife for an IPOD touch to run my ballistic software on for my 31st BDAY she said it was to much money and went out 2 weeks later and bought another horse for 5k your a lucky man. Im a horse owner
06-12-11, 22:02
halo2304

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICANHITHIMMAN

God did you ever pic a good woman very nice gift. I asked my wife for an IPOD touch to run my ballistic software on for my 31st BDAY she said it was to much money and went out 2 weeks later and bought another horse for 5k your a lucky man. Im a horse owner

I'd name it Sarah Jessica Parker! :jester:
If she can drop 5k on a damn horse but can't (won't) loosen the purse strings for an iPod for your birthday, you should at least get to name it!

This only further supports my observation that horse people are weird!

But, I digress...

It's interesting how deep the lands & grooves are in the barrel of the VP70. Looking at the muzzle on mine (safely, not the Buford Tune way!), I've never seen more pronounced rifling...except maybe in barrels mounted on tanks or A-10s. :D
06-12-11, 22:10
omega21

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo2304

I'd name it Sarah Jessica Parker! :jester:
I've never seen more pronounced rifling...except maybe in barrels mounted on tanks or A-10s. :D

I know you are kidding, but barrels on modern US tanks are smooth, not rifled. But if I wasn't a former tred hed I might have $5K to my name to spend on a horse... err... gun, I mean gun!
06-12-11, 23:21
halo2304

Oops, my bad! Could've sworn I saw a picture of a tank's muzzle that had, at least to my eyes, "rifling" that looked like a gear would engage.

$5k would buy a hell of a Colt! :D
06-13-11, 00:59
LHS

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo2304

Oops, my bad! Could've sworn I saw a picture of a tank's muzzle that had, at least to my eyes, "rifling" that looked like a gear would engage.

$5k would buy a hell of a Colt! :D

Probably an older tank, back when they used rifled bores.
06-13-11, 01:04
LHS

I saw one in a gun store a few years ago, and immediately said, "You always were an asshole, Gorman."

I had seen them periodically, but never got to fondle one, so I asked the shop owner if I could see it. I tried the trigger and immediately realized that all the talk about horrible, gritty, heavy trigger pulls on the VP70 was simply understatement. The thing was hideous. I handed it back.

It's a neat piece of history, both for real and Hollywood reasons, but I can't see spending that kind of coin on one unless I was either a serious HK collector or a serious Aliens movie buff.
06-13-11, 01:11
Magic_Salad0892

I was talking to my girlfriend about buying one once and here's what she said:
(Exactly word for word)

Why?

You can't carry it, because nobody makes holsters for the ****in' thing.
You can't suppress it, because nobody makes threaded barrels for it.
You can't feed it, because magazines are insanely expensive, if you can find them.
You can't shoot it, because the trigger is terrible.
My dad would love it, but probably wouldn't carry it over the Makarov.
Unless you're a collector, I'd look at the P7.

I listened. I regret it, but not for any practical reason.

SteyrAUG, you married a good woman.
06-13-11, 14:00
SteyrAUG

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHS

It's a neat piece of history, both for real and Hollywood reasons, but I can't see spending that kind of coin on one unless I was either a serious HK collector or a serious Aliens movie buff.

They can be found for under $500.
06-13-11, 14:01
SteyrAUG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magic_Salad0892

I was talking to my girlfriend about buying one once and here's what she said:
(Exactly word for word)

Why?

You can't carry it, because nobody makes holsters for the ****in' thing.
You can't suppress it, because nobody makes threaded barrels for it.
You can't feed it, because magazines are insanely expensive, if you can find them.
You can't shoot it, because the trigger is terrible.
My dad would love it, but probably wouldn't carry it over the Makarov.
Unless you're a collector, I'd look at the P7.

I listened. I regret it, but not for any practical reason.

SteyrAUG, you married a good woman.

She was correct to steer you towards the P7. At one time I owned 6 of them and the only reason I have a VP70 is for my HK collection.
06-13-11, 14:18
LHS

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

They can be found for under $500.

The guns themselves may be cheap, but what about mags? $500 is still $500, too. I'm not knocking you getting one, like I said, I can appreciate the history behind it, but the appeal is fairly limited. In other words, this is probably the first time I haven't been jealous of one of your guns ;-)
06-13-11, 15:50
BrianS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Templar

Best use of a VP-70........Colonial Marine issue sidearm in Aliens.... :ph34r:

I'm still hoping for rifle size/weight flamethrowers in my lifetime.

:D

When I was a kid I had a few different toy guns that shot rubber pellets that were shaped lots like the VP-70.
06-13-11, 18:39
halo2304

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHS

Probably an older tank, back when they used rifled bores.

You may be right or it could've been the fact that I was posting way past my bed time! :D

As for mags, I managed to pick up one at a Cabela's type store for $20. I was REALLY nervous the guys would've recognized it as an H&K mag and multiply the price! On a side note, at the last gun show I went to I picked up a couple of P7 mags for about the same price each. Talk about an EPIC win! :jester:
06-13-11, 23:45
halo2304

Here's my VP70Z
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...IMG_0248-1.jpg
...among my collection of early H&K hand guns.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...s/IMG_0541.jpg
Since this photo was taken I've added a second P9S that came with Nill grips (Upper right) and one of these...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...s/IMG_0831.jpg
This is my MKE SP89 clone and while not an actual H&K, I think it's a reasonable facsimile enough for me to be satisfied.

To me, these pistols represent some of the most forward, out-of-the-box engineering one can find in a hand gun.
06-14-11, 02:54
SteyrAUG

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHS

The guns themselves may be cheap, but what about mags? $500 is still $500, too. I'm not knocking you getting one, like I said, I can appreciate the history behind it, but the appeal is fairly limited. In other words, this is probably the first time I haven't been jealous of one of your guns ;-)

I think this thread clearly demonstrates they have a limited appeal at best. I was simply noting they aren't at stratosphere prices like some discontinued HK handguns. And mags aren't necessarily cheap or easy either, fortunately mine came with two and this is one instance where I think I will only need two.
06-14-11, 02:58
SteyrAUG

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo2304

Here's my VP70Z
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...IMG_0248-1.jpg
...among my collection of early H&K hand guns.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...s/IMG_0541.jpg
Since this photo was taken I've added a second P9S that came with Nill grips (Upper right) and one of these...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...s/IMG_0831.jpg
This is my MKE SP89 clone and while not an actual H&K, I think it's a reasonable facsimile enough for me to be satisfied.

To me, these pistols represent some of the most forward, out-of-the-box engineering one can find in a hand gun.

I still need an HK4. One day. I'm also in need of a P8 and P10, but it might be awhile till I get those.
06-14-11, 06:59
Magic_Salad0892

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

I still need an HK4. One day. I'm also in need of a P8 and P10, but it might be awhile till I get those.

P8 is German Police issue USP right?

Which one was the P10?
06-14-11, 11:51
dewatters

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magic_Salad0892

P8 is German Police issue USP right?

Which one was the P10?

If I remember correctly, the P8 is the Bundeswehr issue USP. The P10 is the police issue USP Compact. Both have the weird safety where you have to push it up to fire; the safe position is located at what would be the decocking position on a normal USP.
06-14-11, 18:30
halo2304

If I had to part with my H&K collection, I'd start with my HK4 then VP70Z then, if I really had to, I'd let go of one of my P7s. Heaven help me if I had to go further than that! The HK4 is a neat little pistol that can be made to fire four different calibers. Mine is .32ACP and .22lr. The later being one of the worst reliability wise. If I really wanted to push my collection further, I'd get the other two barrels for the HK4 and try to find a P9S in .45ACP. Then maybe the other P7 variants. I'm pretty happy with my collection as it is for now.
06-14-11, 23:03
MassMark

Blast From The Past In The Present...

For me, the VP70z brings back memories. It was my first center fire pistol purchase on my 21st Birthday. I wish I still had the box, but my youth told me to chuck it, so I did. I carried this gun for a year inside my Levis jacket... :D The only holster I found for it, was a nylon flap holster by Bianchi. The trigger pull never bothered me much - I had nothing to go on at the time. I still own it, the Bianchi holster and 6 18-round mags. The only issue I had with the gun, was wearing out the mag catch and surprisingly, HK still has them. I understand there's a Wolff spring that will lighten the load a bit, but as yet have not done anything to it.