AR Pistol for HD setup and suggestions

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10-31-17, 22:17
ExplorinInTheWoods

AR Pistol for HD setup and suggestions

So I think that the AR pistol is one of the better options for HD option, I still think a standard 16" AR is great and the shotguns have a role too. But I want to discuss how I set up an AR pistol for my Dad for home defense and what others think are important to have for a HD set up.

http://youtu.be/E9kQ4114cvE

I feel that the following are important
A. Weapon light
B. Sling
C. Red dot
D. Flash Hider not muzzle break
E. Self defense ammo not green tip
F. Iron sights, preferably fixed front or at least front always flipped up
10-31-17, 23:44
CDR_Glock

Light, Red dot and back up sights are key.

A sling would be great for control. Hearing protection would be important, too.

Last, but not least, practice time for handling, failure drills and marksmanship are also important.

Instagram: MuzzleblastMD
10-31-17, 23:59
ExplorinInTheWoods

I have the sling for keeping the gun with me in the instance of a scuffle, I prefer two point slings but on this I went with a single point for the ability to transition to non dominant hand if need be. I agree 100% time for handling and training with are the most important. Having a set of electronic ear pro (sound amplifying kind) setting on the gun would be another great thing to have.
11-01-17, 18:26
bababoris

AR Pistol for HD setup and suggestions

It’s a better option compared to a golf club or a baseball bat but not compared to a Glock or a shotgun IMO. Unless your dad is preparing for the zombie apocalypse an AR over complicates things. But better than nothing

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11-02-17, 01:25
ExplorinInTheWoods

I would like to hear your reasoning why you think it's more complicated? He's an old macv sog guy and worked at colt for a while and faxon firearms for a period as well so he's very familiar with an AR. Unfortunately my old man is in hospice with cancer. He wasn't supposed to last more than 3 years when he was diagnosed back in 08.
11-02-17, 01:45
uffdaphil

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExplorinInTheWoods

I would like to hear your reasoning why you think it's more complicated? He's an old macv sog guy and worked at colt for a while and faxon firearms for a period as well so he's very familiar with an AR. Unfortunately my old man is in hospice with cancer. He wasn't supposed to last more than 3 years when he was diagnosed back in 08.

You didn’t state your old man’s experience in the beginning. I expect a SOG vet could give advice, not need it from anyone here.
11-02-17, 05:03
bababoris

Quote:

Originally Posted by uffdaphil

You didn’t state your old man’s experience in the beginning. I expect a SOG vet could give advice, not need it from anyone here.

I agree. He’s not your average senior citizen which is what I assumed.

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11-02-17, 09:43
ExplorinInTheWoods

Fair enough, I built that for him back in July and decided to do video and thread while I'm on leave with him. But do you guys have anything that I did not cover for a HD gun, do you guys have a preference on ammo do you think a 16" AR would be better? I'm talking strictly a house not a house plus a few acres with it.
11-02-17, 10:14
Pappabear

I like a suppressor for HD. Its still going to be loud , especially considering it will be indoors.
11-02-17, 13:43
ExplorinInTheWoods

I agree. I have a silencer tech thread on can that I could put on. I'm wanting to get a surefire 300 sps and a socom 556. Being in the military makes it kind of difficult for me since it's like am I even going to be in the same place long enough to pick it up when it's out of nfa jail.
11-13-17, 22:19
LowSpeed_HighDrag

Quote:

Originally Posted by bababoris

It’s a better option compared to a golf club or a baseball bat but not compared to a Glock or a shotgun IMO. Unless your dad is preparing for the zombie apocalypse an AR over complicates things. But better than nothing

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's mind blowing to me that this mentality still exists. Care to backup your claims?
11-14-17, 05:33
gaijin

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExplorinInTheWoods

Fair enough, I built that for him back in July and decided to do video and thread while I'm on leave with him. But do you guys have anything that I did not cover for a HD gun, do you guys have a preference on ammo do you think a 16" AR would be better? I'm talking strictly a house not a house plus a few acres with it.

I run 64 gr. G.D. in my "truck gun" pistol.
Has proven accurate (A/C hits to 200 yds.), completely reliable and quite maneuverable.

I'll echo the electronic hearing protection- and/or suppressor for a house gun.
It's gonna be vicious loud in a bedroom/hallway.
11-14-17, 09:15
Pappabear

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExplorinInTheWoods

I agree. I have a silencer tech thread on can that I could put on. I'm wanting to get a surefire 300 sps and a socom 556. Being in the military makes it kind of difficult for me since it's like am I even going to be in the same place long enough to pick it up when it's out of nfa jail.

yea that grossly complicates a complicated situation. I would just wait until you start to settle down a bit. A can is nice but not necessary. Ive always thought a good set of electronic earmuffs by the bed that enhanced my hearing would be nice in lieu of a can. better hearing and no massive concussion.

PB
11-14-17, 10:24
Diamondback
First, let me stipulate that I have no "applied" experience beyond the "Briefcase/Bugout Bag PDW" an LEO buddy and I cooked up.

Starting from front to rear:
1. Definitely some kind of concussion management system is in order--ideally a suppressor, but if your area is NFA-unfriendly or you don't wanna fight with the ATF paperwork at least a blast shield like Ferfrans CRD, Strike Industries Oppressor, Fortis Control or Indian Creek BFD at minimum.
2. Unless you have length restrictions, a 12.5" barrel seems to be about the sweet-spot from what I've read--handier than a fullsize M4, less beastly on blast etc. and better ballistics than a 10.3-10.5". In Stickman's words, "the [12.5"] GL/SSC out-Mk 18's the [10.3"] Mk 18."
3. When under stress and the adrenal dump hits, less moving parts to fight with is better--unless you need a magnified optic, I'm a big fan of fixed front-sight posts (keep all the moving parts concentrated on the back end), and for something that "discreet carry" or "low profile" are not a consideration might consider a fixed rear BUIS too. (Exception being eye trouble--I'm a big fan of Diamondhead sights due to my horrible eyes, and visual needs trump fixed/folding. You can ALWAYS leave a folder deployed...)
4. I like longer handguards because of additional room to mount accessories, or to reposition them based on ergonomic needs.
5. Short barrels tend to be harder on wear and reliability--definitely either a Geissele Super 42 or Vltor A5 buffer system. If you need a shorter LOP or have to fight with an OAL restriction, Geissele gets the nod since it fits into a standard CAR/M4-length tube, but if you have the room Vltor's worth the extra 3/4". (A5 is basically the original fixed-stock recoil system in a telestock/pistol tube and a shorter but same weight buffer.)
6. If low overall weight is a concern, either Shockwave Blade or no brace. If balance is more important than OA weight and you like things tail-heavy, look to the SB braces and their mag-carrier and add-on bag accessories.
7. Building on the prior, while it adds weight I'm a BIG fan of having a few spare mags mounted right on the weapon so you don't need to worry about grabbing a carrier.
To elaborate on "onboard mag carriage," there are many ways to do this. The oldest is to couple two mags together with clamps, or duct-tape 'em for a "drop, flip, shove in, reloaded." CAA makes a rail-mount carrier designed for one of their stocks that works just as well on a fore-end rail. If you're above 26" OAL, you can use FAB Defense's mag-carrier foregrip; below 26", attaching this part makes an NFA AOW. As noted above, SB has a carrier that nestles neatly into the middle of their braces--in theory you could lash one to either side of a Shockwave Blade, but in practice Marty at Shockwave is concerned that *any* alteration might jeopardize the "not a stock" classification. So for a Kino or GL/SSC pistol, with one carrier on each side-rail, one in the foregrip and one in the brace, that's four spares ready to go plus the one in the well--and if you use coupled mags everywhere except the brace, you've got 270 rounds on tap, more than the standard infantry combat-load (IIRC, only 7 mags). Taking this to a ludicrous extreme, if you have Hulk strength you could do a D60 drum in main and foregrip (120 rounds), coupled 40-round PMags in forearm carriers (2x80 = 160, total 280), and if you have a long enough arm to run the brace out that far, another 40-rounder for a final total of 320 rounds.
EDIT TO ADD: If you really want to get truly ridiculous, slap the new Odin Works 5-round extenders and couplers on. You might be able to squeak coupled 40's onto the SB carrier, so adding +5's that brings the Ludicrous Load up to 390 rounds--one USGI mag away from a full spam-can right there on the gun. Dumping the drums for paired-and-+5'ed 40's, that would get you a whopping, just plain STUPID four hundred fifty rounds on the gun... but how do you expect to HOLD it? LOL

After I've had a chance to watch your video with audio (I'm in a sound-unfriendly environment as I type this) I'll put up the 10.3 I have under construction and the 12.5 I'm penciling out in the name of sharing ideas and inspiration.
11-14-17, 20:43
ExplorinInTheWoods

I agree some electronic muffs are great because they can amplify sound. I was watching a Clint Smith talks about the purpose of a light on your gun is to identify something in the dark and help you flip the light switch in your own house. I think that is a good point. Everyone talks about having a light to ID but you never hear anyone talk about something as simple as getting to the light and flip it on. I also think a sling is an overlooked piece of gear.
12-05-17, 19:11
ExplorinInTheWoods

So what are you guys running ammo wise for AR pistols for actual defense?
12-06-17, 07:01
Pappabear

I typically run an AR for HD, however if I ran my MP5, it would be with Gold Dots or Federal HST's. From the 135 147 variety. I like these bullets as they are good and not a $1.00 a round.

PB
12-07-17, 15:08
ExplorinInTheWoods

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pappabear

I typically run an AR for HD, however if I ran my MP5, it would be with Gold Dots or Federal HST's. From the 135 147 variety. I like these bullets as they are good and not a $1.00 a round.

PB

Well for your AR what ammo do you run? I'm referring to using a 5.56/.223 AR pistol not a pistol caliber AR.
12-07-17, 16:36
Pappabear

All my SBR's are sighted in with 77grain SMK bullets, so thats the deal. I did buy some Gold Dots 62 grain thinking traditional hollow point, but did not really load the mags and sight in with them. I don't have a pistol AR per se, but SBR's kinda the same.

PB
03-16-18, 22:47
Jpg366

I would put a small laser up front, along with enough of a light for target identification.
03-17-18, 07:57
Diamondback

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jpg366

I would put a small laser up front, along with enough of a light for target identification.

This too. Pistol-size versions like a Lasermax Uni-Max and a Streamlight TLR size-class, with a tape-switch on the laser. CAUTION: Wall O' Text ahead!

Right now, even though I haven't had a chance to watch OP's vid, my pencil-outs... the 10.3 is at "Non-Firearm Mockup" assembled around an EPL blank, the 12.5 and 14.5 are still at "concept" stage.

Starting at the front:

UPPER RECEIVER GROUP
Muzzle Devices: [all three] Precision Armament AFAB or EFAB flash arrestor/brake hybrid shrouded by Indian Creek BFD or similar blast shield
URG: 10.3": Milspec Mk 18 FSP; 12.5" Milspec GL/SSC lo-pro; 14.5" Milspec M4 FSP
BCG's (all): Toolcraft milspec, black nitride
Handguards: 10.3" Vltor CASV-EL; 12.5" undecided long (debating between 10.75" URX II or if I can find one an 11-12" 8-side M-lok); 14.5" DD M4 RIS II FSP
Front Sights: 10.3" integral FSP with Arisaka Mossie Mount; 12.5" rail-mount fixed; 14.5" integral FSP with CAA or GG&G side-rails
Rear Sights: [all three] Diamondhead rear folder (wish they made fixed versions!)
Lasers: 10.3" Lasermax Uni-Max on Arisaka Mossie FSP mount; 12.5" same, as far forward as possible on top-rail; 14.5 same as 12.5"
Lights: 10.3" Olight PL-1 II on side-rail; 12.5" TLR, PL-1 II or similar on top of laser; 14.5" same as 12.5"
Optics: 10.3" DI Optical FC1 no-riser; 12.5" and 14.5" FC1 with riser
Left-side rail: 10.3" and 12.5" CAA MPS magazine carrier with 40-round PMAG; 14.5" either as shorter builds or two MPS'es with 30-round PMAGs
Right-side rail: 10.3" F to R light, FAB VTS thumbrest, tape-switch for laser; 12.5" and 14.5" as 10.3 but without light
Bottom rail: 10.3" FAB PTK angled foregrip; 12.5" F to R FAB PTK and MG20 mag-carrier foregrip with Magpul D60 drum; 14.5" FAB T-Pod folding bipod-grip and MG20 w/D60
In a nutshell, we're basically talking mil-spec URG's so far other than the MD's, rail-mount accessories and the sights/optics which were chosen specifically with bad eyes like mine in mind--I can't read a handicap parking sign from the other end of the parking space without my glasses.

LOWER RECEIVER GROUP: Pretty much the same across all three builds. Differences as noted.
Lower receiver and LPK: Any quality milspec will do. As a southpaw I like the Arms Unlimited ambi mag-catch.
Grip: Whatever fits you best. For discreet carry I like FAB AGF-43S folders, but I've had better luck with those (and with the company in general!) than most.
Buffer system: Geissele Super 42 or Vltor A5, with LAW sidefolder on 10.3" - useful option for truck/bugout-bag builds.
Brace: SB Tactical SBM4 with 40-round PMAG in center-tunnel. Brace strap loosened allowing mag to slide fore/aft as needed.
Mag in well: 10.3" 10-round PMAG (this is a "briefcase carry" concept); 12.5" and 14.5" Magpul D60 drum.

All in all, the basic concept was "barely de-NFA'ed versions of issue models, with tweaks where warranted to fit operator biomechanics, visual or carriage needs;" the mag carriers are there so if I don't have time to grab LBE along with the weapon I at least have SOMETHING right there to fight with. Would appreciate feedback from anyone who's done similar builds, and hope they give some useful ideas and inspiration. :)
03-18-18, 20:56
Nanuk

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExplorinInTheWoods

Well for your AR what ammo do you run? I'm referring to using a 5.56/.223 AR pistol not a pistol caliber AR.

In my 5.56 Pistol I run 55 grain Nosler Ballistic tips. My HD Pistol though is a 300BLK loaded with 115 GRN Lehigh Controlled Chaos.
03-18-18, 22:03
Jaysop

This is the first time ive heard of someone using an AR pistol as a serious use gun. I was always under the impression an AR pistol would just be a range toy.
I've recently decided I didn't want to go through with the whole SBR process so this may be a way to have a more maneuverable, compact weapon in a rifle caliber.
03-19-18, 09:47
Nanuk

2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaysop

This is the first time ive heard of someone using an AR pistol as a serious use gun. I was always under the impression an AR pistol would just be a range toy.
I've recently decided I didn't want to go through with the whole SBR process so this may be a way to have a more maneuverable, compact weapon in a rifle caliber.

I was skeptical and looked at the PCC's available and decided to bite the bullet a couple years ago and build one. I run it like a carbine, I tried other methods and cheek weld works so much better for me. I have been using the platform for 4 decades in the Army and LE so for me it was a no-brainer. Consider that it has less recoil than a PCC. I run mine in IDPA rifle side matches against guys with PCC's and carbine and beat most of them.

Attachment 51076 Attachment 51075

7.5" 300 BLK. That is a 50 yard group with the Bushnell TRS25 and Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos.
03-19-18, 12:26
bamashooter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaysop

This is the first time ive heard of someone using an AR pistol as a serious use gun. I was always under the impression an AR pistol would just be a range toy.
I've recently decided I didn't want to go through with the whole SBR process so this may be a way to have a more maneuverable, compact weapon in a rifle caliber.

Not a bad alternative especially given the increased capacity, maneuverability, etc. Barrel length would be a primary consideration based on your individual perceived needs. Assorted calibers have their +s / -s.
03-19-18, 12:33
bamashooter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nanuk

I was skeptical and looked at the PCC's available and decided to bite the bullet a couple years ago and build one. I run it like a carbine, I tried other methods and cheek weld works so much better for me. I have been using the platform for 4 decades in the Army and LE so for me it was a no-brainer. Consider that it has less recoil than a PCC. I run mine in IDPA rifle side matches against guys with PCC's and carbine and beat most of them.

Attachment 51076 Attachment 51075

7.5" 300 BLK. That is a 50 yard group with the Bushnell TRS25 and Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos.

That's nice. Hard to beat that accuracy. Is it zeroed at 50 yards? Is that with the stock extended? I put a little TRS-25 HiRise on something (lol) weeks ago. Not bad. Got it from Midway for around 60.00 or so w/ free shipping when they were having some kind of special sale on it.
03-19-18, 12:44
Nanuk

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamashooter

That's nice. Hard to beat that accuracy. Is it zeroed at 50 yards? Is that with the stock extended? I put a little TRS-25 HiRise on something (lol) weeks ago. Not bad. Got it from Midway for around 60.00 or so w/ free shipping when they were having some kind of special sale on it.

Zero'd @ 50 yards. There is no stock to extend, it is a pistol buffer tube. I don't like any of the braces.
03-19-18, 19:28
krm375

1 Attachment(s)

Attachment 51088
8.5 inch .300 blk Noveske,
03-20-18, 11:13
bamashooter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nanuk

Zero'd @ 50 yards. There is no stock to extend, it is a pistol buffer tube. I don't like any of the braces.

Thanks. Should really get my eyes checked (lol).