Print this target. Aim for the bottom of the triangle at 25 yards. Group your shots in the circle for a 100 yard zero.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86...5MeterZero.jpg
I have found this to be very useful.
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Print this target. Aim for the bottom of the triangle at 25 yards. Group your shots in the circle for a 100 yard zero.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86...5MeterZero.jpg
I have found this to be very useful.
Interesting and definitely thanks. My buddy had one somewhat similar the last time I zero'd my rifle. It had a black square with a thin white X crossing through it. Below a inch or so was a small black dot about the size of a nickle maybe. Basically you aimed right at the center of the white X crossing in the black square and the POI should be in the dot below. We then went back and verified it from 50 and was dead on (didn't have a chance to verify at 200). If anybody knows where to find a printout of that target it would be much appreciated.
That looks like a knock-off mod of the Helwink/Chudwin 25yd sight-in/100rd Zero Target:
http://www.lawofficer.com/Images/100...m22-158738.pdf
Defenitely one of the Chudwiun versions. I actually prefer the one you posted.
Is zeroing a little low at 25 yards that difficult to begin with? Wouldn't any gridded target work, just hold on the center and get your POI where you want it (count squares) based on what your absolute zero need is?
Rob,
That target was designed for LE personnel when zeroing their patrol rifles. While the majority of the guys I work with "Get it" during the zeroing portion of the training, theres always a few who dont at first. Every little bit of assistance helps with those few, and these targets definately help simplify the process.
I support any method that gets people to understand that POA/POI at 25 is not an acceptable method of expedient zeroing.
I want to make sure I have this straight.
Looking at the link you provided.
I aim at the bottom of the triangle type thing from 25yds and the bullet impact is in the center of the small circle for a 100yd zero, the top of the small circle for a 50yd zero and the bottom of the triangle type thing for a 25yd zero.
I would then go out to whatever distance zero i chose(in my case 50yd) and i should confirm my zero.
Im pretty sure im right.
Thanks.
There's a Blackwater target very similar to that as well. I used to have a PDF of it. I think it looked like a reduced "E" with a small white block just below COM. You aimed COM and put the rounds in the white block and it was BZO for 100M.
Just remember to always verify at 100 afterwards or when you can.
is this still available somewhere? the links are working....
Also, is there a 200 yd zero version of this?
I've never seen that before. Looks pretty good. I may have to try it out soon!
http://www.mcgeedigitalmedia.com/arf...zerotarget.pdf
For 200 yards, you want your POA/POI to be the same at 50 yards. Impact should be about an inch and a half high at 100 yards then back to near 0 at 200 yards.
Hate to admit it, but it took me a little while to think this through and understand. finally got it, but kept wondering - if its hitting low at 25, wouldn't it hit even lower at 100? Very cool - Thanks for the heads up - I'll be printing it.
Negative, the bullet is still going up at 50 yards. See the image below:
http://i38.tinypic.com/1z227pg.jpg
gotcha - thanks
Why aim for the bottom of the triangle and not the center of the circle?
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I zeroed my ar's by aiming in the middle of a circle at 25 yards and grouping them within.
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Then, you have a 25-yard zero and not a 50-yard zero. This means you'll be higher than 1-1/2" at a hundred yards and I think you'll be over 300-yards (closer to 400 maybe?) before you bullet crosses the line of sight again.
Without shooting at the intended long range, 25-yard zero is only good for "maybe" getting you on the paper for long range shooting...unless you only want to shoot close range"?
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Just to make sure I understand this correctly- You do the sighting in at 25 yards but this method gives you a 50/200 yard zero? Or is it zeroed at 100 yards?
If not what am I missing here? What two points will the bullet cross the line of sight?
Thanks for the clarification I can be a little thick headed sometimes :blink:
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I feel inadequate explaining this but I'll try:
This target is supposed to compensate for being at 25 yards trying to get a 50-yard zero. Your bullet is still rising to the line of sight at 25 -yards for a 50-yard zero.
Most people want "point blank" range. This means your bullet will only be about 1-1/2" above or below the line of sight from 0 to about 225 yards.
Your bullet will cross the line of sight (los) at 50-yards going upward. It will rise about 1-1/2" above los around 100 yards and then start falling crossing the los again about 200 yards and then be about 1-1/2" below the LOS around 225.
Like Mark5PT56 said earlier, make sure to verify your accuracy out as far as practical.
Out to 225 yards, this 50-yard zero, will only help make sure you "maybe" hit the paper that far. If you intend to actually shoot out to 225 yards, you should shoot that far to verify. But I like to shoot 100 yards, then 200 yards, and then after you're zeroed at 200 (225), shoot again at lesser ranges to see where POI actually is.
Remember if you are off 1" at 50 yards, you'll be off 4" at 200 yards.
Did this get you good and confused??
The target shown in the OP, along with several other similarly designed 25yard "field expedient zeroing targets" are designed to get you "on-paper" at your desired "ZERO" (Point of Aim/Point of Impact) distance by adjusting your Point of Impact approximately 1.5" low at 25 yards. This method will give you a rough 100 yards Point of Aim/Point of Impact "Zero".
If you want a 50yard/225 yard zero, you should adjust your Point of Impact to be approximately 1.12" below your Point of Aim at 25 yards.
*IMPORTANT!!! YOU MUST CONFIRM YOUR ACTUAL ZERO AT THE DESIRED "ZERO" DISTANCE (100 or 50 YARDS). USING THE REDUCED "FIELD EXPEDIENT" 25YD TARGET METHOD IS JUST TO GET YOU IN THE "BALL-PARK" OF YOUR DESIRED ZERO DISTANCE.
Here is a quick video from Kyle Defoor on a 100M zero: http://www.kyledefoor.com/2009/10/carbine-zero.html
I use the same method, but I do it at 100 yards instead of meters.
ETA: A 50 yard and a 200 yard "Zero" are two different zeros. A 50 yard zero must be confirmed at 50 yards, and will give you a repeat zero at approximately 225 yards. A 200 yard zero must be confirmed at 200 yards, and you will usually be close to Point of Aim/Point of Impact @ 50 yards. (Usually within 1/4" or so @ 50 yards). Not a really big difference between the two methods, but they are NOT one in the same. Of course different ammo types, weights, etc. will vary your point of impact.
What this is good for is getting you on paper @ 100. If you have a canted fsb you may not even hit paper at 100 your first time out.
Whatever distance you are at use the smallest circle, square, etc to zero on. What some find is what's "one the target" at 25 doesn't mean you are on at 100. ALWAYS CHECK AT 100!
I like a 1" square at 25-get the windage right and 2 of my fingers (point/middle) below the square and confirm at 100. It's always on because I get the windage right on. -years ago it was a 3" dot at 100--use a B8 target now.
There is a value in working through the zero process IMHO, especially in a class environment. I have been in classes where we rough zero low at 25, re-zero at 50 and then get to other things. I have also been in classes, like Randy Cain, where we rough zero low at 25, re-zero at 50, get a hard zero at 200, then check it again at 50. The remainder of the course is interspersed with more zero checks and fine-tuning. I have considered taking the class with my go-to rifle at least 25% of the reason being to get my zero locked in.
the hidden benefit of all this is that you're working the marksmanship fundamentals the whole time. Randy is sort of tricking you into becoming a better shooter while you're fine tuning your zero along the way. At the end of the class you're a better shooter with a good hard 200 yard zero that you've gotten to spend three days doping out and learning the hold-over/under for at various distances as well as when that matters and when it doesn't.
Not to pick nits but for someone having trouble with this concept, terminology may be important.
keeping the bore level; the projectile never "rises" to your line of sight, it starts falling the moment it leaves the bore.
Your sightline is a considerable distance above the bore, so by necessity your line of sight is angled down slightly. Your sightline travels in a perfectly straight line, the projectile travels in a downward arc.
So... Your perfectly straight downward angled sightline will intersect that downward arc in 2 places. Your near and far zero.
You can see in the below paint drawing (not to scale) how this plays out for a 50-225 zero. The red line is your trajectory, the black line is your line of sight raised above the bore and angled down. The blue lines at 50-225 show the intersection of trajectory/line of sight. The blue line at 25 shows why you want the rounds to impact lower than point of aim at that distance if you want a farther zero.
http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/r...k/cc308d93.jpg
Edit to continue- tired of typing on an iPhone.
So, if you take the drawing and tilt the right side up so that the sightline is level (allowing you to see the target) the barrel will now be pointed slightly up. This is what gives the projectile the "rise" to meet the line of sight.
Most get this but, that drawing was made a while back for someone who couldn’t grasp that if the bore is level bullets don't "rise" and then fall. He was having trouble with the concept discussed here and that is what cleared it up for him... YMMV as I am not very good at explaining things... :o
I get the picture..
thats a great illustration also, after seeing that it is kind of hard not to get.
along the line of nitpicking, I don't think this is always true.
If the optic centerline and the bullseye centerline are in a straight, horizontal, line from one another then the projectile has to rise to get there.
Also while on the subject of nitpicking I don't believe it's possible to technically have a 25 yard or a 75 yard "zero" as the zero is the second intersection not the first. A 100 yard zero is almost possible because it winds up being pretty much the apex of the curve.
rob_s I wholeheartedly agree that the far distance is the zero. That’s the distance you want to fine tune and get it solid, as any inaccuracy at the near distance will be magnified at the far end.
Also if someone picks a 50-225 zero for their use, gets it good at 50, and then has opportunity to fine tune it and get it solid at 225. They shouldn’t be surprised if it is now off a bit at 50... As pointed out the far distance is your zero. That near distance may be off a bit given your particular load or conditions. It's true intersection may be 45 or 53 yards. The flip side is true as well. If you never work on a solid zero at the far intersection, well than the near intersection is your zero. The far distance would be the estimate that could vary (possibly significantly- that’s why you need to zero at the far end).
Zero to me is point of aim/point of impact. If you never get it solid at the far distance than you don’t have a zero at that distance.
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Good point. Never really thought about it.
Thinking out loud...I wonder what the closest and furthest zero with a “normal” 5.56 round can be with “normal” sights?
Rob_S, Like you say, a 100 yard “might” be possible but I doubt there is that much adjustment in the front sight. Just guessing, you'd probably have to cross the los about 17-18 yards or so to be dead-on at 100 yards...heck... thinking about it some more...it might be something like 80 yards...?
Wonder if anyone has seen the closest and furthest zeros?
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I would think that with a "normal" A2 type sight you could get a fairly close "near zero"- with a fixed elevation like a troy, not as much (but the fsp does screw down pretty far). But, with iron sights it would be difficult to fine tune the associated "far zero" so all you would realistically have zeroed is the near.
I dont agree with the idea that the "Far" zero is always the "True" Zero. I still say that the 50 yard zero and the 200 yard zero are two separate methods of zeroing your AR. Most of the instructors I know of who espouse a 50 yard zero do so for its value at "urban" engagement distances. I have not yet trained with him, but I dont think Pat Rogers has his students go out to 200 yards to dial their zero in at that distance. With a true 50 yard zero, you will have a second "zero" @ approximately 225yards +/-
In his articles in SWAT and posts on the forums, he commonly refers to his zero method as a "50/200 zero", which technically it is not. It sounds like he uses a "True" 50 yard zero. I may be nit-picking a bit here as-well, but there is a difference and it needs to be understood. Im sure Pat Rogers understands the difference, he just likes to keep things as simple as possible for teaching purposes.
Others who espouse the 200 yard zero do it as has already been explained above. They use the 50yard zero as a field expedient method to get close at 200, and then they go out to 200 and dial it in there. They then check where their POI is @ 50 for reference.
So basically there are 3 common "Zeros" used/promoted by the vast majority of instructors and operators out there today: The 50 yard zero, the 100 yard zero, and the 200 yard zero.
For the record, I prefer a "True" 100 yard zero.
i like 50 yard zero because I dont like the 10" hold-under on the 25 yard zero at longer distances. Its only 2" with a 50 yard zero, essentially point and shoot
I'm not an expert on this, but those that I think are would disagree with you. Your statement to me reads like "I don't agree with the idea that earth only has one moon". :D
Second crossing point is the zero, as it has been explained to me.
I also think you misunderstand Pat's methods and reasons. I've trained with him 4 times (I think, it might be 5) and have been through his "zero" process every time. Calling it a zero process is gracious as I think Pat would agree. He's getting people that show up to class all ****ed up to a point that they can be workable for the next three days and move on to other things. His priorities and methodologies are different than Randy's that I explained above. Not better or worse just different.
I have never shot at 200 yards in a Pat Rogers class despite being at a facility that goes out to 300+.