The Official Why My DPMS, Del-Ton, Oly Arms, Etc. Is Better Than Anything Else Thread

Well apparently some of my most recent posts have hurt alot of peoples' feelings when I criticize their DPMS, Delton, CMMG, Oly Arms, you name it selection. The reason behind this post is simple. Many of us consider AR's to be fighting weapons. Not something that we show off to our friends, shoot dirt clods with and take cool pictures with in our latest tactical garb.

Many of those who defend these substandard weapons will do so without listening to any reason or the voice of experience. So in order to prevent another 500 hundred if these threads from appearing I am starting this one. Here is the deal.

1. If you want to post why you think your xxxxx carbine/rifle is better than Daniel Defense, Colt, BCM, Noveske, LMT or other known proven weapons be prepared to explain why.

2. If you think that holding to the TDP or trying to produce a good quality weapon isn't important explain to us why. If you think that staking the carrier key or endplate is unnecessary please tell us why.

3. If you have an exceptional tale of how your carbine/rifle has performed in high count training or otherwise please share it with us.

4. If you feel that you can't wait for a good weapon and have to have something else now. Then explain why it's necessary.

My RRA National Match A2 trumps all because .............................






it's mine :D

Good idea gunz.

I can say that after owning approx. 16 BM's over the last 20+ years that I have learned the short comings of this paticular brand. I dumped my last BM about 5 yrs ago for a LMT. After giving it to my wife I now have a Colt 6920 and can truly say that I am now completely satifised with my decision and it's performance. I will "blame" my long term BM ownership on two things; not having the education to make an informed, intelligent decision and listening to the gun shop BS. I'm feel I am now sufficently educated and have for years now ignored the gun shop BS that is so typical.

I will offer some friendly advise to those who own the lower tier brands, recognize their place in the world of weapons. As bottom feeders. Not to say they will not serve "your" needs but, as 'gunz said, if you defend them as being "as good as" then offer proof. If it is just a range toy or safe queen then any number of lower priced brands should serve in that role. Otherwise I will need to see some hard, overwhelming proof that the lower end of the spectrum is "just as good as"

Also, understand we/I am not talking about your car, wife, dog etc., we are discussing a mechanical instrument. Do not get butt hurt. If it fills your needs then good, if not, understand there are some fixes that will improves it's place in the world or you can do the same as I have, trade up. I did and am glad I did.

I think this thread can serve another function as well.

It is "possible" that some of these brands are reacting to market forces, and have started tightening up their show a bit. I see that some manufacturers renowned for junk have at least started offering better material parts as an option, and I saw a photo the other day of a Del-Ton gas key that was properly staked. I know, kind of like Ahab's White Whale, but there it is....

I know that I'd be happy if the AR market were completely flooded with "as good as" guns that really were "as good as".

Should posters share their experience or credentials as the begining of their post so as to allow the reader to gain insight to their viewpoint? I know that your (Iraqgunz) background clearly gives weight to your opinion versus me as a neophyte arguing the merits of brand X. Also experience or lack of adds/subtracts weight. Just a thought...

Sure, why not.

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Originally Posted by Naxet1959

Should posters share their experience or credentials as the begining of their post so as to allow the reader to gain insight to their viewpoint? I know that your (Iraqgunz) background clearly gives weight to your opinion versus me as a neophyte arguing the merits of brand X. Also experience or lack of adds/subtracts weight. Just a thought...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by 120mm

It is "possible" that some of these brands are reacting to market forces, and have started tightening up their show a bit. I see that some manufacturers renowned for junk have at least started offering better material parts as an option, .

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Absolutely. With the Obamamania over and the gun business slow, the companies selling junk are starting to realize they are losing business because people know their product is inferior.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iraqgunz

2. If you think that holding to the TDP ... isn't important explain to us why.

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Responding to just this point just with respect to the lower receiver:

My understanding is that the lower receiver is a low stress part, so a billet lower will work just fine, as long as the dimensions are correct (pins fit, mag drops free, fits with milspec upper, etc.).

What I like about a billet lower is the larger diameter finger hole that is integral to the receiver rather than a separate part pinned in place. That is just a personal preference based on aesthetics, not function. Also, I do like the look of some billet lowers.

If I have misunderstood and there are times when the greater strength of a forging rather than billet are necessary, please tell me. Or if there is some other point that I overlooked, please set me straight. Thanks.

I will repeat here what I have posted several times in other threads. Over about 10 years I have gone through lots of ARs, many of them custom builds. Some were just good deals. Some were guns that I thought would be fun, etc. Brands included Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, DPMS, Rock River, CMMG, etc. (I know I am missing a couple but I am drawing a blank at the moment). They were shitty guns. I thought they were average guns when I bought them, but I learned. In other words, I am not as stupid now as I was then.

I have gotten rid of most of those shitty AR-15s (still trying to sell some - send a PM if interested :D ) in lieu of the half dozen that are at or very, very close to the TDP. In some cases I had to sell 2 shitty AR-15s to generate the money to pay for one good AR-15. In other cases I only had to add $200 to the selling price of a shitty AR-15 to get a good one. So it was not painful at all. Now I have to get rid of my shitty M1As from SA and get one good one from Fulton Armory.

About 15 years ago I went the same route on optics. I was absolutely DONE with Bushnell, Bausch & Lomb, Redfield, Weaver, Tasco, etc. So I threw some of those crap optics in the trash and sold others, and implemented a policy that nothing crappier than a Leupold could go in the safe. And I live by that policy. I have not purchased a Leupold in 10 years, sticking to better quality options.

I guess I should clarify the whole TDP thing. I am talking about important stuff like proper grades of steel for the bolt, small parts, barrel, etc...

I used a Mega Machine billet lower to build my wifes carbine. Everything fit 100% and I had no issues with it at all.

I would even use BM lowers to build a rifle/carbine if I had to. I agree that it is more or less a "low stress" part. I know that there have been pics posted of some lowers that have cracked or broken at the rear where the lower receiver extension meets up. How and why is unknown.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 500grains

Responding to just this point just with respect to the lower receiver:

My understanding is that the lower receiver is a low stress part, so a billet lower will work just fine, as long as the dimensions are correct (pins fit, mag drops free, fits with milspec upper, etc.).

What I like about a billet lower is the larger diameter finger hole that is integral to the receiver rather than a separate part pinned in place. That is just a personal preference based on aesthetics, not function. Also, I do like the look of some billet lowers.

If I have misunderstood and there are times when the greater strength of a forging rather than billet are necessary, please tell me. Or if there is some other point that I overlooked, please set me straight. Thanks.

I will repeat here what I have posted several times in other threads. Over about 10 years I have gone through lots of ARs, many of them custom builds. Some were just good deals. Some were guns that I thought would be fun, etc. Brands included Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, DPMS, Rock River, CMMG, etc. (I know I am missing a couple but I am drawing a blank at the moment). They were shitty guns. I thought they were average guns when I bought them, but I learned. In other words, I am not as stupid now as I was then.

I have gotten rid of most of those shitty AR-15s (still trying to sell some - send a PM if interested :D ) in lieu of the half dozen that are at or very, very close to the TDP. In some cases I had to sell 2 shitty AR-15s to generate the money to pay for one good AR-15. In other cases I only had to add $200 to the selling price of a shitty AR-15 to get a good one. So it was not painful at all. Now I have to get rid of my shitty M1As from SA and get one good one from Fulton Armory.

About 15 years ago I went the same route on optics. I was absolutely DONE with Bushnell, Bausch & Lomb, Redfield, Weaver, Tasco, etc. So I threw some of those crap optics in the trash and sold others, and implemented a policy that nothing crappier than a Leupold could go in the safe. And I live by that policy. I have not purchased a Leupold in 10 years, sticking to better quality options.

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Good idea for a thread, given the recent preponderance of posters espousing the superiority of their poor to mediocre guns.

Since it's the purpose of this thread, I'll share the experience I have had with my first AR, a Stag Arms A3. I still own it, but keep it mostly as a range toy now that I don't feel quite comfortable trusting my life to it.

Background: I'm a citizen with a strong belief in personal responsibility which extends to self defense and am fascinated with mechanical things, so guns are a natural fit for me. I enjoy running drills to make myself better, and see myself as proficient especially with some automatic pistols and I'm getting there with ARs.


On to my Stag...
I bought my Stag merely 18 months ago. Since then I have put around 2500 rounds through it, mostly doing drills. I've had exactly one stoppage from this gun, a double feed, about a month after I bought it. Other than that the only issue I've had with it is a cracked buffer retaining pin. I noticed it cracked during an inspection after a range trip. I am not sure what caused it--I'm thinking maybe just that it has a carbine length gas system while having a carbine buffer in it from the factory before I knew better.

That said, the barrel didn't go through MPI or a HPT. Neither did the bolt, nor was it shot peened. It's also not made of the correct steel. The bolt carrier isn't chrome lined. It doesn't have M4 feed ramps... I think I've listed enough.

So while it has been a good gun that has treated me right, I now know that not all AR-15s are created equal and buy accordingly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 120mm

I think this thread can serve another function as well.

It is "possible" that some of these brands are reacting to market forces, and have started tightening up their show a bit. I see that some manufacturers renowned for junk have at least started offering better material parts as an option, and I saw a photo the other day of a Del-Ton gas key that was properly staked. I know, kind of like Ahab's White Whale, but there it is....

I know that I'd be happy if the AR market were completely flooded with "as good as" guns that really were "as good as".

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I, on the other hand, have a Del-Ton that has a quasi-staked gas key. Yes, they did push the sides in towards the screws, but there was no contact with the screws. Obviously, they tried but didn't quite achieve the desired results. I now have a BCM BCG that has replaced the Del-Ton BCG. I am sure this are other "issues". When I purchased the Del-Ton, it was right after Obama took office, and I have since learned quite a bit by following threads on this site.

I recognize a few people here from another smaller forum I've posted a couple of times on but I've been lurking here off and on for a while so I thought I'd go ahead and post up my experience.

I bought my Bushmaster on Nov. 12, 2008 and have since put about 1000 rounds down the pipe. My only issue with it have been a couple of stove pipes. Not bad but still unacceptable IMO. I see no reason why a rifle should ever really do that. The Colts I've seen in training never did that, or experienced any other issues, when digesting magazine after magazine of Wolf steel cased ammo. So in my quest to fix this issue and on the advice of others I sent money to BCM for a bolt carrier group and H buffer. They got here last week... and I didn't install them.

I looked long and hard at the new parts, decided the Bushy wasn't deserving, and am placing an order for a BCM upper to go on my current lower. :big_boss:

Some interesting notes on my BM from 2008:
- Purchase Nov. 12, 2008
- Approximately 1000 rounds through it.
-The gas key was about 1/2 staked from the factory. That is, one side was touching the bolts holding the gas key (or really close) and the other half wasn't. Even on the side that's done a bit better it's nowhere nearly as well done as BCM or Colt carriers. I staked it by hand at around 250 rounds.
-They didn't even try to stake the castle nut.
-The bolt carrier is the newer style semi-auto unit that has a lot more metal in it than the original semi-auto carriers.
-Came with a carbine buffer.
-Has M4 feed ramps.
-Trigger is heavy but crisp with no gritty feeling. It has very little slack to take up. :confused:
-Chamber seems to be 5.56 Nato (55gr 5.56 accounts for well over half the rounds I've put through it).
-It's WAY over gassed. This is to the point that it stings ones face and really burns the eyes to shoot NTCH without glasses on. In comparison I'd say that it's about half as painful (maybe 3/4 if it really gets the eyes) as getting hit by an 8% solution of pepper spray... fortunately it doesn't last nearly as long.

The only issues I had with my Bushy was trying to run the upper on a FA lower. I replaced The semi BCG and she ran fine on SA, FA was a no go. I changed buffers and buffer springs with no luck. I think it was an issue with the gas tube. I put an LMT 10.5" upper on and it runs like a sewing machine.:D

I bought a Del-ton Ar-15 during the "great scare" after I bought it I had the gas key staked, bought and installed a bolt upgrade kit ( black insert, spring and o- ring) and had the castle nut staked. then bought a Magpul CTR stock. It's a good shooter and I enjoy it. Presently the lower is wearing a BCM complete 20" upper while I get the $$$ for a spikes tactical lower :D

As Ive said before, Ive made the mistake of buying a few of the crap guns, I for one will never make that mistake again.

Paul Howe with CSAT here. Just a few early thoughts. I run Tac Rifle Instructor courses and Tac Rifle Operator courses where there might be 10-12 Instructors in the course and up to 24 shooters in the two-day classes, sometimes 36 shooters at one time on various ranges.

I have seen all rifles good and bad break, both old and new. Most have been LWRC due to their quality control and accuracy. I had one Noveske last year I had to put hands on to get it running.

We currently run 5 of the DPMS CSAT rifles that were built under my last POC and a crew that turned out quality weapons. DPMS has been bought out and the QC is questionable now because my POC was forced out, new management in, etc. It goes in cycles.

I have issued our DPMS guns to many students to shoot when their rifle failed. Some folks rent these guns. They have run great and I think I got a good batch.

I think there is something to be said for a weapon company that is small and keeps their QC through stable management. I like to work with and promote such companies to help give them a boost up when I can and shoot their guns and give them feedback often.

Customer support by the company is important. I have heard of Mr. Noveske calling folks personally telling them to immediately ship their rifle back to be fixed as he understands QC. Also, larger companies put out more guns and when there is a problem, more guns get out to customers with a problem and discontent spreads.

In short, all have problems at one point. I believe the smaller companies fix their problems faster as they are still able to do so without a great deal of red tape. I feel sorry for the shooter and their $2500 rifle that craps out on them during day 1 of the course. We just issue them a rental and they keep on shooting.

I am running another course shortly and will keep track of all malfunctions/problems and report them to this thread.

Thanks,

Paul

Thank you Mr. Howe for taking the time to visit M4c and give your input.

It is always appreciated.

People often fall in love with things like guns, cars, football teams, political parties and the like. I don't. I never love something that can't love me back. It's OK to fail to be objective about your wife, your kids, even your cat, because you love them. No one really expects you to acknowledge that your new baby is ugly or your teen son is a creep, in fact, it is probably better not to acknowledge such. Failure to properly evaluate things is another matter. The Universe does not care that you love Chevys because you daddy loved Chevys and his daddy loved Chevys. Chevrolet is now Government Motors and that's not a good thing. Same with rifles. If you consistently fail to acknowledge mistakes you will have a considerably harder and less prosperous life.

Mr Howe,
I've attended a few of your courses and hope to do so again. We appreciate your insights. I also read your newsletter, regularly, and recall you commenting on your success with DPMS. This is in complete contrast to the expieriances, observations and opinions of other high quality well known instructors.

Considering the poor performance wittnessed by other instructors of DPMS products, prior to there take over, do you think its possible that your POC may have taken the extra time and QC to build your specific/individual guns delivered to you, better then the average gun they have send out the door?

Bob

Bob,

Thanks and I think companies get into a cycle of doing things right and then when they get large enough, they are bought out. Many times the buyers bring in their own management and QC folks that were never part of the original process. They go through a period of re-learning and many times the folks that brought the company up to high levels leave because of new management headaches.

I don't think DPMS made me special guns, they were just at that point in their cycle that things were right with the company. My POC Evin was a top notch guy and I have not had any contact with them since he left.

As for other instructors, many get free rifles or sign contracts with companies that sponsor them, so they decline to bring up issues openly, but hopefully do so internally.

If someone sends me a gun to T & E, I do so and give them feedback internally. If it works and I like it, I put it in my web letter. I don't have any contracts with any gun makers and have not been approached by many. Many look at the plain Jane hardware I put on rifles they send shake their heads. It either shoots as advertised or it does not. Not much grey area. One should not need a bunch of Gucci add on stuff to make it run.

Thanks again and I hope this helps.

Paul