12.5 Kino+ ... My plan for a Kino build

[rob_s]

As I understand the attraction of the Kino, it's for people that prefer to have a fixed, barrel-attached, front sight. Whether because they are using irons-only or because they don't trust a clamp-on front sight for whatever their purposes are.

Something I don't see discussed much is using an FSP rail handguard on a standard 12.5" barrel. I've been thinking of doing one of these from Centurion as they sell all the right parts (12.5" barrel with carbine-position FSB, and a 12.0 FSP handguard). That would give me a place to mount an X300 at 12 o'clock, a longer handguard to cover the hot barrel and give me more flexibility on hand position and barricade support, and not have the redundancy of the separate gas block and FSB.

Also, I will say that I've been a fan of the Brazilian rails too, but as volumes of fire increase, heat increases, and there's something to be said for the traditional railed handguard systems and the rail covers they require for shielding one from the heat, and I'm really digging the Larue clips for this. I have a VTAC handguard on my HD gun and I'm going back to the DD M4 9.0 I had on it before thanks to the Larue clips.

[Col_Crocs]

Something I don't see discussed much is using an FSP rail handguard on a standard 12.5" barrel. I've been thinking of doing one of these from Centurion as they sell all the right parts (12.5" barrel with carbine-position FSB, and a 12.0 FSP handguard). That would give me a place to mount an X300 at 12 o'clock, a longer handguard to cover the hot barrel and give me more flexibility on hand position and barricade support, and not have the redundancy of the separate gas block and FSB.

Yeeessssss! My thoughts exactly. If I were to build another AR, this is definitely the route I would go, but, with a DD RISII M4A1 FSP.

[Noodles]

I wouldn't recommend these - "Clamp-on A2, PRI Folding, or ARMS 41b folding front sight." They are not of the greatest quality and can cause reliability/function issues (not to mention not hitting your target). You're better off with a set of of folding buis or keeping the A2 FS.

You have doubts about the PRI folding front? Like the same one Crane chose to go on the MK12... That's interesting because I have no doubts about it at all. Especially since its just going to be a sight and not a gas block. VLTOR seems to suggest their crossbolt (which is practically the same as everyone else's, took 100lbs of rotational torque, meaning the barrel will sheer its index pin or strip out before that clamp gives.

Not sure if the ARMS has seen real world use, but if The MK12 uses a clamp on, it seems like its good to go. I'm sure they dd plenty of testing and not just trusted their gut feeling.

Of course I could be wrong, it's just speculation on my part.

[rob_s]

Personally I would use a rail-clamp-on over a barrel-clamp-on.

[Iraqgunz]

A pinned FSB is far superior than any bolt on, screw on gas block.

You have doubts about the PRI folding front? Like the same one Crane chose to go on the MK12... That's interesting because I have no doubts about it at all. Especially since its just going to be a sight and not a gas block. VLTOR seems to suggest their crossbolt (which is practically the same as everyone else's, took 100lbs of rotational torque, meaning the barrel will sheer its index pin or strip out before that clamp gives.

Not sure if the ARMS has seen real world use, but if The MK12 uses a clamp on, it seems like its good to go. I'm sure they dd plenty of testing and not just trusted their gut feeling.

Of course I could be wrong, it's just speculation on my part.

[Noodles]

A pinned FSB is far superior than any bolt on, screw on gas block.

Do you have actual proof of this? Or annecdotes?

Because it it's proof, please post it up, I'd love to read it. Ideally I'd like to see the sheer torque on both.

The sheer force on a pinned block is placed on a much smaller area when looking at pins. REALLY small actually. There is just a little but of pin at 4 places that rotational load is placed on. Now, I'm not saying its likely, it's not, but just looking at the sizes and styles, my guess is a pinned block is definitely strong than any clamp, but I suspect not double as strong, and both exceed even the most unlikely real world impacts.

That said, that's all my guess. I have a clamp on a saiga that's never moved, that's an annecdote. If anyone has actual PROOF about pinned v clamp on I'd love to see it. Otherwise maybe we can start a new thread about that and keep this one a little more on topic. I'll ignore the style of attachment for now and get back to the primary part of the build questions.

Rob, I still need to process your post, good suggestions there.

[Iraqgunz]

No, I made it up as I have nothing better to do in my free time. Enjoy your project.

Do you have actual proof of this? Or annecdotes?

Because it it's proof, please post it up, I'd love to read it. Ideally I'd like to see the sheer torque on both.

The sheer force on a pinned block is placed on a much smaller area when looking at pins. REALLY small actually. There is just a little but of pin at 4 places that rotational load is placed on. Now, I'm not saying its likely, it's not, but just looking at the sizes and styles, my guess is a pinned block is definitely strong than any clamp, but I suspect not double as strong, and both exceed even the most unlikely real world impacts.

That said, that's all my guess. I have a clamp on a saiga that's never moved, that's an annecdote. If anyone has actual PROOF about pinned v clamp on I'd love to see it. Otherwise maybe we can start a new thread about that and keep this one a little more on topic. I'll ignore the style of attachment for now and get back to the primary part of the build questions.

Rob, I still need to process your post, good suggestions there.

[Noodles]

As I understand the attraction of the Kino, it's for people that prefer to have a fixed, barrel-attached, front sight. Whether because they are using irons-only or because they don't trust a clamp-on front sight for whatever their purposes are.

Ok, understood and agreed. The one thing I'm not sure about is that I might make this an irons only gun. Not sure yet, but it's a possibility for sure. Personally, I'm not really all that concerned about the pinned after seeing the Vltor test video and seeing one used on fielded military rifles.

Something I don't see discussed much is using an FSP rail handguard on a standard 12.5" barrel. I've been thinking of doing one of these from Centurion as they sell all the right parts (12.5" barrel with carbine-position FSB, and a 12.0 FSP handguard). That would give me a place to mount an X300 at 12 o'clock, a longer handguard to cover the hot barrel and give me more flexibility on hand position and barricade support, and not have the redundancy of the separate gas block and FSB.

EDIT: Oh, I just re-read this. You're looking to do a 12.5" barrel with a 12 FSP, that pretty much will exclude all silencers. No?

I'm with you there. An FSP is definitely a good idea for an SBR, and you're right I don't see that much. Mounting an X300 at 12 does have it's own issues though. Changing the battery or getting a QD that doesn't ride too high, getting it on and off, etc. I did a quick google and would like to the thread I found, but that's not allowed here.

Quick question, do you think the an X300 mounted at 9 or 11 on the extended midlength apex guard will produce a noticeable shadow or point of light / point of impact change compared to an X300 mounted at 12? I ask because I wonder if the extended will let you put the light out further past the FSB than a standard rail would.

Longer handguard we are agreed on. However, I really disagree on the redundancy...

By going with a Kino setup, what you're getting over a FSP rail is ONE extra once, but also getting a fully protected actual gas block. That is, on the FSP rail, you're gas block / sight is out there to get hit and damaged. One a kino, it's fully protected by the handguard. To say redundancy implies a negative. I see difference as at worst, a lateral change, neither better or worse. Just different.

The forged FSB can crack when hit. All talk about sheering pins and clamp rotation aside, if hit hard enough, it's steel on steel to the barrel, something must give. I've seen FSB's broken during install (twice) but never one already installed. Still, there is something to be said for protecting the gas block imo.

Also, I will say that I've been a fan of the Brazilian rails too, but as volumes of fire increase, heat increases, and there's something to be said for the traditional railed handguard systems and the rail covers they require for shielding one from the heat, and I'm really digging the Larue clips for this. I have a VTAC handguard on my HD gun and I'm going back to the DD M4 9.0 I had on it before thanks to the Larue clips.

I don't know. I've seen you mention the clips, but buying a rail with spaces I'll never use and then just putting clips on them goes against everything I believe in

How much weight do you have in LaRue clips? Is it more than the one once that I'm considering adding for the brazilian keno build? The Apex guard imo looks a lot better than the Troy which I have mixed feels about for various reasons (one solved with the Alpha series). Noveske, LaRue on their rifles, KAC with the URXIII, Geissele, Wilson, Troy, and even DD are all making shaved or modular rails. It really seems to me that quad rail with covered is an implementation on it's way out. I'm not saying I don't like my DD OmegaX, I do, it's just that I look at it and think "Why is this all here?" or more to the point, "why am I paying for this?"

[Noodles]

No, I made it up as I have nothing better to do in my free time. Enjoy your project.

Oh, I'm not saying you made anything up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FfXscExrb4

I'm just saying things aren't so black and white. This Vltor video aside... And the military using the PRI barrel mounted sight on the MK12... To me, the linkage on the ARMS 41b looks stronger than any rail mounted folding sight I've seen out there as it's a supported main post vs a long lever arm. It's a triangle vs a lever arm. If everyone is willing to ignore how smashing a folding against whichever way it locks in the up position against it's very small parts is likely to cause a missing front sight, then doesn't it seem unfair to judge a rotational load against a barrel mounted clamp?

[rob_s]

Ok, understood and agreed. The one thing I'm not sure about is that I might make this an irons only gun. Not sure yet, but it's a possibility for sure. Personally, I'm not really all that concerned about the pinned after seeing the Vltor test video and seeing one used on fielded military rifles.

I don't see the point in doing a Kino, removing a standard FSB, and replacing it with a folding, clamp-on, front sight. Just put a front sight on the rail, fixed or folding, and you'll save weight over any of the other options and you can put it wherever you want going foward/

EDIT: Oh, I just re-read this. You're looking to do a 12.5" barrel with a 12 FSP, that pretty much will exclude all silencers. No?

Yes and no. Not all. But IMO silencers are a waste of training ammo and money (cue the kvetching)

I'm with you there. An FSP is definitely a good idea for an SBR, and you're right I don't see that much. Mounting an X300 at 12 does have it's own issues though. Changing the battery or getting a QD that doesn't ride too high, getting it on and off, etc. I did a quick google and would like to the thread I found, but that's not allowed here.

You remove the light to replace the batteries. It slides off very easily.

Quick question, do you think the an X300 mounted at 9 or 11 on the extended midlength apex guard will produce a noticeable shadow or point of light / point of impact change compared to an X300 mounted at 12? I ask because I wonder if the extended will let you put the light out further past the FSB than a standard rail would.

if it's not at 12 o'clock, I would not personally choose an X300 and would use an M300C or M600C. Both have better "throw" (I own multiple examples of all three).

Longer handguard we are agreed on. However, I really disagree on the redundancy...

By going with a Kino setup, what you're getting over a FSP rail is ONE extra once, but also getting a fully protected actual gas block. That is, on the FSP rail, you're gas block / sight is out there to get hit and damaged. One a kino, it's fully protected by the handguard. To say redundancy implies a negative. I see difference as at worst, a lateral change, neither better or worse. Just different.

The forged FSB can crack when hit. All talk about sheering pins and clamp rotation aside, if hit hard enough, it's steel on steel to the barrel, something must give. I've seen FSB's broken during install (twice) but never one already installed. Still, there is something to be said for protecting the gas block imo.

I'm beginning to wonder what you think it is you're going to be doing with this gun. I'm not personally HALO jumping nor am I a "I break everything I touch" neanderthal either. I want shit to be strong and secure but I'm also not some Tier 1 guy deployed to secret locations. and I bet they take better care of their shit than most people on the internet pretend to anyway.

I don't know. I've seen you mention the clips, but buying a rail with spaces I'll never use and then just putting clips on them goes against everything I believe in

How much weight do you have in LaRue clips? Is it more than the one once that I'm considering adding for the brazilian keno build? The Apex guard imo looks a lot better than the Troy which I have mixed feels about for various reasons (one solved with the Alpha series). Noveske, LaRue on their rifles, KAC with the URXIII, Geissele, Wilson, Troy, and even DD are all making shaved or modular rails. It really seems to me that quad rail with covered is an implementation on it's way out. I'm not saying I don't like my DD OmegaX, I do, it's just that I look at it and think "Why is this all here?" or more to the point, "why am I paying for this?"

so you want all this hard-use gear, but you're not going to shoot it hard, and you're letting your belief system interfere with functional use? I'm getting more and more confused.

My suggestion is that you need to drop back and punt this for a bit. One thing we learned in design school is to have a concept. What this does is allow you to evaluate all of your design decisions against that concept. If you have a strong concept, design is almost EASY compared to the dumbasses that just copies Corbusier drawings out of books.

To equate that to guns, establish an end-use. It's best if this is based on actual prior use and discovering shortcomings in your existing platform systems when employed in that use but if it's all theoretical to storming the Vatican that's fine too, at least there's a goal. When you evaluate your parts choices as you move forward you see if they fit that end-use.

Take a look at this to understand what I mean. This gun was assembled with a very specific application. As I went through and developed my list of parts I looked at all known examples of a given part and chose the one that best fit that application. It came together like a friggin' swiss watch because of this.

https://sites.google.com/site/tactic...ultralight-sbr