12.5 Kino+ ... My plan for a Kino build

[J_Dub_503]

You have doubts about the PRI folding front? Like the same one Crane chose to go on the MK12... That's interesting because I have no doubts about it at all. Especially since its just going to be a sight and not a gas block. VLTOR seems to suggest their crossbolt (which is practically the same as everyone else's, took 100lbs of rotational torque, meaning the barrel will sheer its index pin or strip out before that clamp gives.

Not sure if the ARMS has seen real world use, but if The MK12 uses a clamp on, it seems like its good to go. I'm sure they dd plenty of testing and not just trusted their gut feeling.

Of course I could be wrong, it's just speculation on my part.

You're right, go ahead and dismiss what I said. I'm no expert, I'm not in the military or the firearms business and I'm definitely no theoretical physicist. However, you might want to listen to Iraqgunz ( who just happens to be an armorer of all things ) and Rob_s. These two men are well respected on this forum and their advice is given from experience.

[Noodles]

You're right, go ahead and dismiss what I said. I'm no expert, I'm not in the military or the firearms business and I'm definitely no theoretical physicist. However, you might want to listen to Iraqgunz ( who just happens to be an armorer of all things ) and Rob_s. These two men are well respected on this forum and their advice is given from experience.

I once sold a truck to an actual rocket scientist. Like worked and retired from NASA, had TWO PHDs in something or another, and then one day he tried to sell me into a Quikstar / Amway pyramid scheme. Smart people can be mistaken too.

I'm not discounting anything anyone says, at the same time I don't care who it comes from, it's not the One True Word either. There are a lot of ways to do things and everyone has an opinion.

I've personally seen first hand actual military testing on firearms, salt testing to be specific. If they spend half the time and money testing everything else like they test for salt... I'm 100% sold on military testing. If the Mil uses a part, it's legit as far as my uses go. Absolutely no offense intended, but if some anonymous internet person tells me otherwise about a .mil part, it's not discounted, just very suspect.

Rob_s gets massive respect from me and I don't feel like I'm arguing with him, just trying to come up with a consensus about what will work for me based on his first hand experience.

Rob, processing and I'll write back in a second. I think I see a point where we'll agree.

[J_Dub_503]

Noted, understand that there is some play in the PRI and it's cast, not forged. I think I read somewhere that the casting is better for heat dissipation, not entirely sure though. The GG&G seems to be the popular model if you go that route.

[Noodles]

Noted, understand that there is some play in the PRI and it's cast, not forged. I think I read somewhere that the casting is better for heat dissipation, not entirely sure though. The GG&G seems to be the popular model if you go that route.

When I want some more abuse I'll start a thread about which barrel mounted sight

[CoryCop25]

I was under the impression that the Kino was designed for the reliability of the carbine gas system in the 12.5 and the longer sight radius of the middy.

[Noodles]

I don't see the point in doing a Kino, removing a standard FSB, and replacing it with a folding, clamp-on, front sight. Just put a front sight on the rail, fixed or folding, and you'll save weight over any of the other options and you can put it wherever you want going foward/

The idea is that I have a gun that I can reliably do irons only on. Have an optic with no FSB in the way. Be 12.5" for various reasons. Have a slick handguard. And be able to pick up and put down in a hurry. I'm not going to hammer railroad ties of course, so all these side issues about strengths and clamps moving is a little off subject.

Kino gets me a midlength guard, in fact, in this case, extended mid length. It gets me the barrel of my choosing (CHF or LW or Both, or whatever). A front sight that is out of the way, protected at it's base. A LIGHT rail, which you place a priority on it seems, which is odd to me that you're considering rails with covers again. And most importantly for this project, it's cheap. For this gun I don't have $300+ to drop on the rail. It's a side project to a more expensive setup I'm making. I wish I had more money for these things, but I don't. If cost were no option, I'd buy a long DD rail and mill off the rails where I don't want them. Or wait for a Geissele or buy a Wilson TRIM. Cost is an factor, and the Apex Kino folding isn't "cheap" but it's cheaper than a lot of other options.

One thing I'd like to do is stay with a 12.5" barrel that doesn't really have much barrel exposed. This is personal preference to me. If you can recommend an 11" handguard, that's light, under $250 retail and doesn't have a fatal flaw like the KAC rails (expensive tool), I'm be glad to look into it.

Yes and no. Not all. But IMO silencers are a waste of training ammo and money (cue the kvetching)

I've seen your posts on this topic on forums. You make some fine points about extra weight and other issues by having a can on there and I respect those. That said, I like cans and feel that if I have to fire indoors, I'm going to be glad as hell it's on there. I just don't feel it's as large and issue for my use. Along those lines, I guess we all get a little spec-minded when looking at weight, but forget that the 3oz you save with this or that, is going to be proper-****ed by adding a 20oz silencer at the very end of the barrel

if it's not at 12 o'clock, I would not personally choose an X300 and would use an M300C or M600C. Both have better "throw" (I own multiple examples of all three).

Great info and I'll look into those immediately. One thing I did like about the X300 is it's also a handgun light, adds a little versatility if needed.

I'm beginning to wonder what you think it is you're going to be doing with this gun. I'm not personally HALO jumping nor am I a "I break everything I touch" neanderthal either. I want shit to be strong and secure but I'm also not some Tier 1 guy deployed to secret locations. and I bet they take better care of their shit than most people on the internet pretend to anyway.

No low openings for me either. And I take fine care of my shit as well. That said, I have plenty of delicate guns and am not looking for another. At the same time, I never said I wasn't going to use it hard.

My suggestion is that you need to drop back and punt this for a bit. One thing we learned in design school is to have a concept. What this does is allow you to evaluate all of your design decisions against that concept.

Great advice. And the 10.3 build looks well thought out. I'm going to go back a read that again a little slower this time.

[Noodles]

I was under the impression that the Kino was designed for the reliability of the carbine gas system in the 12.5 and the longer sight radius of the middy.

Correct.

Rob_s's issue with it, is you paying (in weight) for the the gas block as well as the FSB. 1oz aluminum or 2oz steel + 4.7oz for a FSB. I could be wrong, Rob is free to correct, that's just my understanding of what he dislikes about it.

My argument is that the 2.7 or 3.7 extra ounces comes with a protected gas block and more options that just the fixed fsb, and yea also the longer sight radius compared to a carbine fsb. Long sight radius means absolutely shit if you're using an optic though.

[CoryCop25]

[QUOTE=Noodles; Long sight radius means absolutely shit if you're using an optic though.[/QUOTE]

Correct, so run a12.5 with an 11 inch rail and put a flip up sight on it. You cover your low pro block, and get an even longer sight radius. Thus saving weight of the low pro gb and fsp.

[Noodles]

Correct, so run a12.5 with an 11 inch rail and put a flip up sight on it. You cover your low pro block, and get an even longer sight radius. Thus saving weight of the low pro gb and fsp.

Well... Yea. That's a great option. I'm just not sure I have found a light rail with the features and cost I'm looking for.

The way I see it, my proposed build is THAT, just with a notch cut out of the rail for a slightly heavier front sight that instead of attaching to the rail, attaches to the barrel. And to your post, you only save the wieght of the FSP, but that's offset by adding a folding front sight. So... +1.5oz for a Troy or +4.7 for a FSB, everything else should be roughly the same. See my original post about a Wilson Trim railed 11.5" only being 1.5oz lighter than a 12.5" kino with Apex.

[rjacobs]

So your going to run a can on this or not?

If you are, just go with a 10.5" with the pinned FSB and the extended carbine Apex hand guard and be done with it.

I have to agree with these guys that you seem to be building something that is WAY over complicated(at least to me). I dont have any experience with clamp sights or gas blocks or what not so I cant comment on that stuff. I dont know, I try to keep things simple and reduce the points of possible failure. To me getting 2" more hand space, 2" longer sight plain, and 2" more "fill in the blank", doesnt justify greater complication of running 2 different clamp on parts that have the potential to come loose at the wrong times.

Oh and "im building an SBR, I want that ****er as short as possible(within reason)" comes to my mind also.