Interesting perspectives from a warrior

[DocGKR]

Frogman at TF has written some interesting commentaries worth considering:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultim...;t=001100;p=2#000045

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultim...;t=001102;p=1#000005

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultim..._topic;f=12;t=001103

[DocGKR]

Another: http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bi...104;p=1#000003

[Spooky130]

Interesting threads with lots of good information...

Spooky

[SIMPLYDYNAMIC]

Interesting threads with lots of good information...

Spooky

+1 very good info...Thanks Doc

[Heavy Metal]

Much food for thought. Thanks.

[S-1]

Good stuff.

[John_Wayne777]

My 2 cents:

LE experience vs. .mil experience:

For a significant period of time more guys in LE had gunfighting experience than a lot of .mil guys did. I know police officers who put in decades in the military who never fired a shot in anger until they joined a police force...

There were, of course, exceptions to that rule such as elite military units who spend their time doing things they can't talk about at parties.

Since 9/11 that has changed dramatically. There are now 20 year old Marine Lance Corporals who have killed more people than the plague and for whom close quarter combat is a daily reality. Our current adventures in the middle east are producing a wealth of combat experienced individuals who will eventually find their way into positions where they help prepare others for the realities of combat.

This is a good thing.

I think this partially explains why LE experience has dominated the discussion about gunfighting for a long time.


.mil fighting vs. civilian/LE fighting:

The sort of threat the guys in Iraq face is quite a bit different than the sort of threat that your average LEO or non-LE civilian will face here in the good ol' US. There really aren't many stateside who face the threat of an ambush by some guys with IEDs, RPGs, and belt fed machineguns.

The sort of tools available to deal with the threat are also quite a bit different. The average person stateside has to deal with a threat with a handgun and doesn't have the luxury of level IV body armor. (Level IV armor isn't a luxury in Iraq....it's a necessity of daily life...something that illustrates the level of threat.) They are also likely to face the threat alone rather than as a member of a team.

These differences are not insignificant, and I've learned from actual BTDT types that there are different ways to approach things based on what sort of threat you face, what tools you are working with, and what's on the line when you make decisions. (i.e. room clearing, fight vs. flight, etc.)

That being said, there are a number of common threads that seem to apply universally to dealing with someone who is trying to kill you.

I've taken training from LE guys who've used lethal force and from .mil guys who've used lethal force..(including at least one guy that Frogman probably worked with)...the things they taught about mindset, preparation, the unexpected, etc were remarkably similar. A good example would be looking at what Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn taught during the low light class. They have very different backgrounds but what they taught was right in line together. If I'm not crazy I even remember LAV saying once that he learned more from Ken than from any other instructor he could name....and Mr. Vickers wasn't exactly a rear echelon type.

Anyhoo, that's just my unprofessional, low speed, high drag opinion. YMMV.

[the1911fan]

My 2 cents:


A good example would be looking at what Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn taught during the low light class. They have very different backgrounds but what they taught was right in line together. If I'm not crazy I even remember LAV saying once that he learned more from Ken than from any other instructor he could name....and Mr. Vickers wasn't exactly a rear echelon type.

.

I think Ken either has been teaching/instructing so long or he is just very adept at teaching ( maybe someone that worked/trained with him years ago would know this)..at this point in his life he appears to me to be pretty seemless in his instructing...some people regardless of their BTDT trigger time may just not take to teaching as easily, some have to work very hard to become good instructors, and some not at all.

And Mr. Roberts thanks again for posting the TF threads, the information you have provided over the years is excellent and appreciated.

[John_Wayne777]

I think Ken either has been teaching/instructing so long or he is just very adept at teaching ( maybe someone that worked/trained with him years ago would know this)..at this point in his life he appears to me to be pretty seemless in his instructing...some people regardless of their BTDT trigger time may just not take to teaching as easily, some have to work very hard to become good instructors, and some not at all.

Ken is indeed a good teacher from what I've seen....As is LAV.

That being said, it's more than just their skill as an instructor. I wholeheartedly agree that not all BTDT types are skilled instructors. I was referring more to the fact that despite the different backgrounds that Mr. Hackathorn and Mr. Vickers bring to the table, they both seem to have learned a great deal from one another and seem to be teaching largely from the same page....indicating to me that there are some universals everyone who carries a gun for serious social purposes would do well to learn.

I've seen attitudes from the LE and civilian side and from the .mil side that says that group X doesn't have anything to learn from group Y because they don't do the same thing. Personally I think both groups have great sources of knowledge and that anyone can learn from these sources and figure out how to best apply the knowledge gained to their particular situation. Everything a member of an elite military unit has experience with might not be relevant to the sorts of threats I am likely to face....but I'd do well to pay attention and figure out how to apply what he is teaching me to my situation. Non-LEO civilians are the WORST about this. If I had a nickel for every person who told me they don't "need" a level of training or equipment because they aren't a SWAT ninja or kicking doors down in Iraq I'd have enough money to pay my tuition for low light number II.

Frogman's comment about staying in one's own lane is, I think, illustrated well by something Mr. Hackathorn said during the LL class. As the whole class was going over the initial shoothouse stuff Ken said (and I'm paraphrasing this) "The stuff we are going to be going over here was practically invented by guys like Larry and the guys in his unit. Nobody in the world is better at this sort of stuff than those guys. SWAT teams and other military units have learned CQB because it was passed down from experienced guys who developed it because of the things they faced."

[the1911fan]

Ken is indeed a good teacher from what I've seen....As is LAV.


As the whole class was going over the initial shoothouse stuff Ken said (and I'm paraphrasing this) "The stuff we are going to be going over here was practically invented by guys like Larry and the guys in his unit. Nobody in the world is better at this sort of stuff than those guys. SWAT teams and other military units have learned CQB because it was passed down from experienced guys who developed it because of the things they faced."

I agree both are very good instructors and their style of instruction blend well together.

I was at the Marietta May 06 LL and it was excellent ...lane violations and all. The night shoothouse was an excellent learning experience..in many ways.

The only complaint I hear from regular line police officers about training like LL I is that it is too fast a tempo and too hard (compared to most State (OPOTA) courses) and I think they are somewhat right as most agencies do not train them enough..even the ones that think they do. I don't hear much from the LE circles commenting negatively about military training other than the above.
The active military I know are not involved in active combat so they really have no informed opinion about
the type of training we are talking about.

I attend extra training to better my skills to save my rear should the situation arise and I wish I could attend more due to the fact only one other officer (Regional SWAT member) on my dept. is interested in doing any training related to firearms other than yearly qualifications. I enjoy the training but I do not enjoy it like some of the non-LEO & non-active military people that attend training. It is more than a means to an end, but I don't see myself continuing training much after I separate from LE.