Indiana House approves bill covering police entering homes.

[montanadave]

This is by far the absolute best discussion I've ever seen between police and citizen members of this forum. Maybe M4C is maturing and moving past the status quo as well.

Agreed. Very enlightening.

And reassuring.

[jaydoc1]

What I find very interesting (and refreshing) is the tenor of this conversation. This same discussion is being (or was being) held on a knife forum with a large LEO following and is absolutely 100% the opposite. There is no reasonable dialogue at all and you can fairly feel the spittle flying from their lips and see the purple faces with veins sticking out on their necks and foreheads as the LEOs yell from their keyboards how these warrants are justified, officer safety is paramount, Indiana has lost its mind, and anyone who says differently is talking out of their ass.

It is essentially an us versus them conversation. The interesting thing there is that the tenor is decidedly reversed from most of the LEO discussions which have so often been shut down here. Namely civilians here being very antagonistic and unreasonable towards LEOs. In the other forum, the civilians asking reasonable questions and making reasonable points are being shouted down aggressively and sometimes threateningly. Very sad.

Here's an example:

Originally Posted by a non-LEO:
This thread makes me curious about this question: do LEOs feel that they should have the right to behave criminally in the name of law enforcement?

LEO Response:
This thread has left me disgusted. Before I knew and felt the bonds of Brotherhood I stood tall and accepted the oath to fight for you. To leave my blood upon the streets and risk even more. For you. I did it without even meeting or knowing you. I did it becuase it was right and just.

It's a shame because there could be just as good a dialogue as this thread has been with real information passed between the two interested groups but instead has been nothing but an emotional shouting match. I even tried to make some of the very cogent and reasonable points that Glock and Dave have made (without naming them or this forum, of course) and the LEO responses were both dismissive and offensive. That's when I became a lurker and posted no more.

[Littlelebowski]

jaydoc, that guy is pathetic.

Armed invasion with perps masquerading as LEOs with warrant.

[bp7178]

I think tactical entries should only be used when necessary. I also don't think calling out is the way to do it for cases where evidence must be recovered. Can't make a possession with intent case w/o the possession part.

As opposed to calling someone out from their residence, I think a better way is through covert surveillance and a take down. Pick off the target when he makes a 2am cigarette run, and execute an entry when the residence is reasonably believed to be empty.

But, these situations have to be assessed in real time on a case-by-case basis.

On early morning get em while their sleeping hits...where do you keep your guns? By your bed. Why? So they are close when you hear a crash at 3am...

[SeriousStudent]

Mr Pennington, thank you very much for taking the time to make that post.

And thank you for your service to our country as an LEO and a medic.

[bp7178]

By far available resources factors into that, as well as the statutes you are working with along with the expectations of the prosecution side of the house.

Long term investigations are how you make big cases, but consume a lot of resources. Larger agencies, including federal entities, may have those resources, others may not. You can't half a budget and lay off a number of people and maintain a high level of service, including having resources to allocate to long term investigations.

[glocktogo]

What I find very interesting (and refreshing) is the tenor of this conversation. This same discussion is being (or was being) held on a knife forum with a large LEO following and is absolutely 100% the opposite. There is no reasonable dialogue at all and you can fairly feel the spittle flying from their lips and see the purple faces with veins sticking out on their necks and foreheads as the LEOs yell from their keyboards how these warrants are justified, officer safety is paramount, Indiana has lost its mind, and anyone who says differently is talking out of their ass.

It is essentially an us versus them conversation. The interesting thing there is that the tenor is decidedly reversed from most of the LEO discussions which have so often been shut down here. Namely civilians here being very antagonistic and unreasonable towards LEOs. In the other forum, the civilians asking reasonable questions and making reasonable points are being shouted down aggressively and sometimes threateningly. Very sad.

Here's an example:

It's a shame because there could be just as good a dialogue as this thread has been with real information passed between the two interested groups but instead has been nothing but an emotional shouting match. I even tried to make some of the very cogent and reasonable points that Glock and Dave have made (without naming them or this forum, of course) and the LEO responses were both dismissive and offensive. That's when I became a lurker and posted no more.

Sounds like they need to hear a different side. Feel free to re-post anything I've posted here. Anything that helps people analyze the situation critically is a good thing.

By far available resources factors into that, as well as the statutes you are working with along with the expectations of the prosecution side of the house.

Long term investigations are how you make big cases, but consume a lot of resources. Larger agencies, including federal entities, may have those resources, others may not. You can't half a budget and lay off a number of people and maintain a high level of service, including having resources to allocate to long term investigations.

Which is exactly why good governance is critical. It only takes a few bad decisions start the butterfly effect. Local government makes a decision to cut an essential service while continuing to provide a non-essential service. The community suffers and it drives away potential investors. Jobs stagnate and people start to leave. Tax revenues fall and additional services have to be cut. Eventually, basic services are curtailed, no new jobs, high unemployment, laid off police, higher crime rates, urban blight, etc., etc., etc.

In order to recover, some tough choices have to be made and unpopular decisions become essential to recovery. Unfortunately, no one seems willing to make tough decisions these days.

[jaydoc1]

http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Saf...wins-approval/

On to the governor now.

[Belmont31R]

Your occupation should not give you special ability to break the law the rest of us have to deal with. Part of the principles our system of law works on is that the law is applied equally to everyone, and just because our ID card says XYZ LE department doesn't give you the ability to break into someones home, and then say oops all the while holding the the homeowner responsible if you get shot because "you should have known" they were LEO's and not random thugs.


You either have valid reason to be in a home or do you don't. "Im an LEO" is not valid reason to be in someones home. We have laws in place that need to be followed, and rights that have to be respected. There is plenty of case law on this in SCOTUS it should not be an issue.

[Irish]

This article is a prime example of what we're talking about. A 20 year old young man, unarmed, lost his life due to the War On Drugs and a dried plant. The police officers were not in uniform and wore "raid jackets" in their plainclothes.

I'm not saying the kid was an angel and wasn't breaking the law. Let's not beat this to death or anything like that. I was reading the news and it caught my eye due to being closely related to this thread.