Long Action Caliber Decision

[BrigandTwoFour]

Don't get me wrong about the scope. I would love to have a S&B or something in that league.

But, being completely honest with myself, the law of diminishing returns applies. After a certain price point, the extra gains are just not worth the expense for someone with my uses. I don't shoot competitively in anything more than a weekend match with some friends. I'm not relying on the scope to serve me under fire. And I certainly don't have a department or unit to buy it for me.

Are the gains made in a $4K scope over a $1.3K scope THAT amazing compared to the $1.3K scope to the $300 scope most people around where I live shoot- nope.

Thank you for the info on the brass. As I don't yet reload, I just don't know what I don't know about the subject. I've read the ABC's of reloading as a base- but have no equipment or experience.

[Pappabear]

Damn right there is a difference. Surgeon actions were designed from the ground up to be tough and reliable. Military grade "tactical" actions, so to speak, that will work every time.

Stiller and all the rest have their tolerances too tight, and have varying degree's of heavy bolt lift. They built benchrest actions above all... then jumped on the tactical bandwagon when they saw there was money to be made.

It's tough to describe the "feel" of a surgeon. It just feels more solid than other rifles. The way it functions is smoother, and the way it "vibrates" during the shot is unlike any of the others. Keep in mind I'm not talking about the RSR... only their actions with integral recoil lug and integral pic rail. The RSR has great bolt lift, but otherwise feels just like any other rem700 clone.

It's just something that has to be experienced to fully understand. Doesn't mean other actions can't make good platforms. ... but good, isn't the best. Surgeon, is the best as far as I'm concerned.

Orkan,

What do know about the MONTANA actions? Other Opinions for guys that do know it?

What is your ideal build. I'm thinking McMillian stock and Kreiger barrel. Action, not so sure of? My Riflesmith likes Montana's for price and availability. Likes surgeon for top end.....

I'll be on my second week on my bushy G2DMR, 3.5-21. I put one on a 7mag hunting gun, and one is going on a FN SPR. I give more feedback when I get more rounds under the bushy.

Guys give me your ideal combo, stock, barrel and action?

[taliv]

Are the gains made in a $4K scope over a $1.3K scope THAT amazing compared to the $1.3K scope to the $300 scope most people around where I live shoot- nope.

completely agree. nope. some time ago, you had to go to the $3k range to get the features you wanted. Then NF came out with a $2k FFP scope, and vortex and others jumped in. But prices on $3k scopes went to $4k and HDMR jumped into the market with something almost as good for less than half the price.

two things to think about though:

1. currently a ton of used USO for sale over on snipershide
2. couple months, bushnell is coming out with a 4.5-30x HDMR. Look for a group-buy from GAP. 30x!!! crazy.

wont' be long before people are just putting spotting scopes on their rifles. heck my leupold mk4 compact is 20-40x60. USO's 5-25x SN3 is only 2mm smaller! and the new HDMR will be almost as much mag

edit: my next build will be GAP-built left bolt, right port templar set up for AW mags, with a bartlein med-palma contour, chambered in 6 CM for the 105 berger hybrids. I want a manners T4A folder. I have an XLR. still debating that.

[orkan]

What is your ideal build.

Manners stock
Surgeon action
Krieger barrel
Surgeon bottom metal
Timney trigger
USO on top
Atlas out front
TAB sling for when you need to be cozy

Recipe for success and happiness right there. Have it all stuck together by Chad at Long Rifles Inc in sturgis... and you'll be smiling every time you press that trigger.

I don't know shit about montana actions, nor do I know anyone that does. Bottom line, there is an action manufacturer in the back corner of every machine shop these days. With the machine tolerances common to cheap machines, building an action isn't exactly difficult. However, its the ergonomics of function that separate them. Surgeon has the easiest yet most positive bolt lift of any action I've run yet.

[BrigandTwoFour]

I figured I would resurrect this one rather than start a new thread.

Earlier on, I was limiting myself to 6.5x55 or 30-06. Orkan, you pointed out that I was really limiting myself here. I've been doing a lot more reading since then, and am now curious about other recommendations.

Revised rifle criteria:

Primary use is for the range and tactical competition, would like it to ring steel with authority out to 1200-1300. I'm not looking to able to kill anything out that far, but would be nice to have the option of killing larger things at more reasonable hunting distances.

Cost of reloading is a concern, as I'd like to practice. I'm not opposed to higher cost reloading, I would just prefer not to deal with it.

Barrel life is a minor concern, keep it in mind but don't make it the focus.

With the barrel length, I'd like to keep it around 24" (Give or take a few inches, I'm not looking for something that requires 28"-30" to get a good burn on the ammo)

That's it. What ideas do you all have for those purposes?

It seems there are a lot of options in the 6.5, 7mm, and .30 worlds. So many that I can't quite distinguish which is best for what use.

[taliv]

it really depends on the match, as some matches favor the magnums (e.g. 7wsm or 6.5SAUM) and others favor the faster but lighter recoiling 6mms, depending on whether the points in the CoF are mostly on the long range stages or the positional/barricade stuff.

i think you'll find if you look at the top ten finishers in most of the major competitive matches (www.precisionrifleseries.com) almost all of them are shooting a 6mm of some flavor (6CM, 243win, etc.) and the rest 6.5mm (260rem, 260AI, 6.5CM, etc.)

if you're just starting out, I'd recommend figuring out what matches you want to attend and talking to the match directors about what most people shoot there. my advice would be to favor the 6mm as it will be easier to learn on. (though they do tend to go through barrels quickly)

however, to clarify, you shouldn't have any problem hitting steel at 1300 with a 6mm but it won't ring it with any "authority" and in fact, can be difficult to spot hits on static targets like IPSCs after you've knocked all the paint off.

most people shoot 26 or 28" in these matches.

cost isn't a big deal with these, but time can be as you have more case prep with some.

keep in mind that most matches limit the velocity to 3100 fps or 3200 fps. so the goal of the cartridge is often to get a high-BC, heavy bullet for the caliber right up to the limit, at a reasonable pressure that's not going to pop primers when it gets hot or rains.

another important consideration is the ability to load the long skinny bullets near the lands while still using AICS or AW mags. this is why these specialty calibers are slightly shorter bodies with longer necks (the latter provides needed bearing surface to hold the bullet)

and another is shoulder angle. standard 20* feeds great, but wears throats faster and requires frequent trimming. ackley imp 40* is the opposite. 30* like the SLR and creedmoor is a compromise.

[DDgunslinger]

The 300 Win Mag, is a good common caliber with great ballistics. Shooter depending you a good out to 1200m. I don't know how set you are in the stocks, but I'm a huge fan of the AICS so that might be something to consider... and you may even want consider doing a MK13 build. Anyway, just something to think about.

[AR15barrels]

If you are hung up on having a long action, make it a 284.
It fits all your wants listed above...

[MikeMcC]

Building a long range precision rifle on any high dollar action, and cambering it in 30-06 or 6.5x55 does not compute.

Distance shooters moved away from the 30-06 long ago (50s-60s) in favor of more "inherently" accurate cartridges. At the time, the 308s ruled the roost, and now days you're seeing some wild 6mms/6.5mm ruling the roost.

In my mind, Lapua brass is pretty expensive no matter what caliber. Considering you'll likely get 10 firings per piece at worst (in a tight match chamber) you're looking at needing a total of 400-600 pieces of brass before your barrel is done.

If it were me, I'd re-evaluate the cartridge choice in favor of something that will net you better results. 260 Remington, 6.5x284 or hell even a 6XC.

30-06 and 6.5x55 are great rounds, don't get me wrong; but all things being equal the BCs, recoil, and efficiency/accuracy of the newer cartridges will most likely stomp a 30-06/6.5x55 (This is not to say these two won't be tack-drivers, but it's far more likely you'll get a better shooter out of another cartridge). If you're throwing this kind of money down on a rifle, don't limit your results out of the gate.

Edit: You know, I just got back from the morning run and thought about this. If you're asking these kinds of questions, your best bet might be to get a savage target action (gasp!) and burn a few barrels out on that to cut your teeth. You won't get the forum dik sucking you would for a custom action, but the accuracy difference between those two actions at 1k is not much. Doing this would allow you change barrels/bolt faces at home, and chamber for pretty much any cartridge short of a 50BMG. In addition, you'd be getting the same quality barrel you would on the stiller/surgeon (almost every high quality barrel maker produces PT&C savage barrels). Once you've burned a few barrels, then sink the money into a custom action when you can actually realize the benefit.

[orkan]

There is really no point in going long action for what you are trying to do.

7wsm will do everything you're asking, and more.