Blast from the past,

[ramairthree]

I was going through what I thought was a huge ammo can with 36x4 AR mags in it (old enough to be pre-ban black follower mags),
but found a surprise. 600 rounds I hand put on stripper clips in bandoliers of C J 93 head stamp 5.56.

Heck yeah, the old Norinco yellow box stuff. Back when you could grab a Mak90 or 1000 rounds of ammo for under 200 bucks. And pretty much the last year you could.

Anyways, I did not have a chrono then, but if memory serves this is non-corrosive, boxer primer, smelly, big flash stuff at straight up mil spec velocities by feel.

I will put some over a chrono.

Oh, and here is some reloading stuff to go with my ammo stuff here on the ammo and reloading forum.

I had the day off today. I hit a public range and tested some of my reloads. My son started doing action pistol stuff back in Feb, and we have done half a dozen matches. We have also done two multigun small matches. He is all over that. Ammo costs have shot up now that shooting more on own time, and we need to make some for less than the .30 or 40 cents a round even bulk brass cased stuff is running now.

For about 17c a round we can make 55g or 62g SS109. About 24.7 of TAC is giving me around 2800 fps for the 55 and 2750 for the 62. Nothing special, but good plinking, match, SHTF stuff.

I had zero'd at 50 for spec 193 type stuff, but had changed from a Micro to an Eotech on the "I never competed and have other ARs but now we want to do 3 gun and there is no reason we should not have carbines dedicated just for that" carbine. I like the Micro better for several reasons but the 1 MOA dot trumps the 4 MOA one.

Anyways, after I figured out what the ammo was running I pulled out the HP15C and did some math with some crayons on the back of a used target. It looked like I should do a 25 m zero, and that would keep me within three or inches of LOS for almost 250 m, but about 8 inches low at 300. Pretty damn good trajectory in my book. I am not a sniper, this is not for long range varmit dusting, or rifle accuracy matches, etc. I averaged the two, and did the match once, but I liked the trajectory better than a couple of other common options that put me a lot lower at 300m.

Anyways, I was zeroing at 25m. And two guys that probably have 90% of their experience on the internet, in a not nice way- you know that fake we are pretending to be nice but really rubbing your nose in our superiority way- tell me how I should be doing a 50/200 zero because that is the most tactically, etc. etc.

I say that is a great zero for some things, but these will not zero at 50/200. And they rub in how bad my 25/300 zero is. So I say that this will not zero at 25/300. And I get a look like I am crazy and am informed that "everbody knows" 25/300 is the zero.

Anyways, I am not emotionally invested enough to do much more than say, well, thanks but I guess I will just wing it for now. Then another guy, who really knows his stuff because he has OIF stickers on the back of his truck and patches from military units on his bag (no, not any that would make anyone other than him think he knows his stuff) gets in on the 50/200 and how of course every one knows 25/300 is the zero for guys that don't know any better.

Now, I got my first AR, an SP1 used back when I was 14. I started shooting for work back in 86. Of course we used the old school 25/300 . But I knew something was up, around the time after A1 / CARs I noticed did not shoot quite the same, and after going to A2s and new ammo, etc. For a lot of my own stuff I actually used a 100m zero. About 7 years ago, yes at work we went to a 50/200. Sure, 8 years of my work were straight up candy ass without enough range time to even bring up. But the rest involved more range time than the average LEO partrolman or military infantryman. Let alone the average LEO or military guy period.

However, I am not 100% on my match, you just punch numbers into the string I have saved on the calc. BC, FPS, (sight height is built in at 1.5), and zero range. I averaged the FPS of the two loads, guestimated the sight height as about right for all my rifles, etc. and could not 100% say I was dead on. Plus I pretty much for 5.56 just use .250 as a BC leave it at that.

But, I was pretty damn sure I wan not putting out enough FPS for those zeros, and said, well, bullets just drop, the faster they move the less they drop before they get out there, and for these bullets I am just going to zero at 25m. All three started to explain trajectory to me, but caught on I just wanted to shoot and not talk.

Anyways, I will for the record I am not a sniper, engineer, or operator. (I know every special response cop and CA guy and various other guys call themselves operators, but you know what I mean.) If any of you are, and know a better zero to smack plates from muzzle to 250, with a low six hold probably going to cut it from 250 to 300, let me know.

[ramairthree]

Yep, that China Sports / Norinco stuff is GTG. It's about 2MOA ammo that averages right at 3201 with single digit sd from my sixteen inch barrel. (should give it a try in the 20 inch sp1 and see what it gets)

for comparison,us m885 was hitting 2985 in same conditions today.

as for my ammo, it opens up around five inches instead of three, going to go up two tenths and see how it does.

[Alaskapopo]

I was going through what I thought was a huge ammo can with 36x4 AR mags in it (old enough to be pre-ban black follower mags),
but found a surprise. 600 rounds I hand put on stripper clips in bandoliers of C J 93 head stamp 5.56.

Heck yeah, the old Norinco yellow box stuff. Back when you could grab a Mak90 or 1000 rounds of ammo for under 200 bucks. And pretty much the last year you could.

Anyways, I did not have a chrono then, but if memory serves this is non-corrosive, boxer primer, smelly, big flash stuff at straight up mil spec velocities by feel.

I will put some over a chrono.

Oh, and here is some reloading stuff to go with my ammo stuff here on the ammo and reloading forum.

I had the day off today. I hit a public range and tested some of my reloads. My son started doing action pistol stuff back in Feb, and we have done half a dozen matches. We have also done two multigun small matches. He is all over that. Ammo costs have shot up now that shooting more on own time, and we need to make some for less than the .30 or 40 cents a round even bulk brass cased stuff is running now.

For about 17c a round we can make 55g or 62g SS109. About 24.7 of TAC is giving me around 2800 fps for the 55 and 2750 for the 62. Nothing special, but good plinking, match, SHTF stuff.

I had zero'd at 50 for spec 193 type stuff, but had changed from a Micro to an Eotech on the "I never competed and have other ARs but now we want to do 3 gun and there is no reason we should not have carbines dedicated just for that" carbine. I like the Micro better for several reasons but the 1 MOA dot trumps the 4 MOA one.

Anyways, after I figured out what the ammo was running I pulled out the HP15C and did some math with some crayons on the back of a used target. It looked like I should do a 25 m zero, and that would keep me within three or inches of LOS for almost 250 m, but about 8 inches low at 300. Pretty damn good trajectory in my book. I am not a sniper, this is not for long range varmit dusting, or rifle accuracy matches, etc. I averaged the two, and did the match once, but I liked the trajectory better than a couple of other common options that put me a lot lower at 300m.

Anyways, I was zeroing at 25m. And two guys that probably have 90% of their experience on the internet, in a not nice way- you know that fake we are pretending to be nice but really rubbing your nose in our superiority way- tell me how I should be doing a 50/200 zero because that is the most tactically, etc. etc.

I say that is a great zero for some things, but these will not zero at 50/200. And they rub in how bad my 25/300 zero is. So I say that this will not zero at 25/300. And I get a look like I am crazy and am informed that "everbody knows" 25/300 is the zero.

Anyways, I am not emotionally invested enough to do much more than say, well, thanks but I guess I will just wing it for now. Then another guy, who really knows his stuff because he has OIF stickers on the back of his truck and patches from military units on his bag (no, not any that would make anyone other than him think he knows his stuff) gets in on the 50/200 and how of course every one knows 25/300 is the zero for guys that don't know any better.

Now, I got my first AR, an SP1 used back when I was 14. I started shooting for work back in 86. Of course we used the old school 25/300 . But I knew something was up, around the time after A1 / CARs I noticed did not shoot quite the same, and after going to A2s and new ammo, etc. For a lot of my own stuff I actually used a 100m zero. About 7 years ago, yes at work we went to a 50/200. Sure, 8 years of my work were straight up candy ass without enough range time to even bring up. But the rest involved more range time than the average LEO partrolman or military infantryman. Let alone the average LEO or military guy period.

However, I am not 100% on my match, you just punch numbers into the string I have saved on the calc. BC, FPS, (sight height is built in at 1.5), and zero range. I averaged the FPS of the two loads, guestimated the sight height as about right for all my rifles, etc. and could not 100% say I was dead on. Plus I pretty much for 5.56 just use .250 as a BC leave it at that.

But, I was pretty damn sure I wan not putting out enough FPS for those zeros, and said, well, bullets just drop, the faster they move the less they drop before they get out there, and for these bullets I am just going to zero at 25m. All three started to explain trajectory to me, but caught on I just wanted to shoot and not talk.

Anyways, I will for the record I am not a sniper, engineer, or operator. (I know every special response cop and CA guy and various other guys call themselves operators, but you know what I mean.) If any of you are, and know a better zero to smack plates from muzzle to 250, with a low six hold probably going to cut it from 250 to 300, let me know.

I am totally confused after reading your post. A 25 meter zero depending on your load is a 30 to 340 yard zero. With your velocity zeroing at 25 yards will put you on again at 340 yards give or take and 6.25 inches high at 100 yards. (2800 fps with a 55 grain FMJ.)

Not saying your zero is bad. Use any zero you want for three gun just know where your round hits at any given range. Seen a lot of shooters miss pesky poppers at 100 yards because they were zeroed at 25. (shot way high on a 4 inch wide by 14 inch tall target) For three gun the long range rifle game is all about knowing your zero. I generally zero at 100 yards but I have a scope with a BDC in it in mils. I use a 225 yard zero with my 77 grain loads for long range steel. I will even dial my scope for different zero's on different stages if it gives me an advantage.

I plugged your numbers in here.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/
use 2.7 for sight height above bore.
Pat

[ramairthree]

Sorry for any confusion.

Main points (after getting sidetracked from how cool and cheap that old China Sports ammo used to be) were-

-Guys treating me like an idiot because I don't know that all 5.56 ammo zeros at 25/300, and, if I am a total in the know stud like them, it all zeros at 50/200 and that is what I should be using because it is the best zero for everything and every totally with it tacti-cool guy like them is using it.

-They had no concept I zero my weapons based on the ammo I will use with them and what my purpose is for that weapon.


To clear up trajectory-

I was zeroing half an inch low at 25m for both.
My math was a little off, in real world it's peak is more like 5 inches than to my 3 inches or less goal. It drops low at 300m, but about half as much than my math said.

I used 2775 fps (average for both), my BC is in as .250 which might be off a touch, and I do need to reprogram my sight height a little higher. (or get with the times and get a smart phone and app instead of using a 23 year old programmable, non-graphing calculator)

Again, sorry for the confusion if the exact math is off from what you get from the trajectory Goal was use same POA to bang an 8 inch circle steel plate from 0 - 300m.

[chadbag]

I occasionally find a box of yellow norinco when going through ancient boxes of things. Good stuff.


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