gripping magwell vs. VFG

[TOrrock]

I'd also be very leary of gripping the mag well. After seeing the after effects of a catastrophic failure and the explosion blowing down through the mag well, I wouldn't put my fingers there.

[USMC03]

The magwell hold is viable method at close distances.

As others have recommended, getting your had as far forward on the forend is the best way to drive the gun. Getting your support hand further out on the forend also provides better control, balance, and support.

Here is something I wrote on another board in reference as to why I put my vertical foregrip all the way forward on a 7.0 rail:


Running the vertical foregrip all the way forward on a carbine length rail is not anything new and it's not anything I thought up myself.

Guys much higher speed than me have been suggesting that I move my vertical foregrip all the way forward since 2003 or 2004.


I had tried moving the vertical foregrip all the way forward several times in the past and it just never "felt right" or was causing me some pain and discomfort due to an injured left shoulder.

In late May of last year, I tried moving the vertical foregrip all the way forward and everything finally "clicked". After several years and several attempts I finally figured out why there were so many advantages to having the vertical foregrip all the way forward.


Think of how things balance and piviot points and maybe the following will make some sense


I have found that the magwell hold or having the vertical foregrip toward the delta ring places the center of gravity too far to the rear. Not a big issue when shooting in a CQB enviornment, but when engaging targets at further distances I have found this technique doesn't work well for me, and it's hard to keep the gun steady.


Kind of hard to explain this via a written message but here goes:

Think of your carbine like as if it were an old 1800's musket, you know the really long muskets, like the one that SneakySFDude carried in Basic. The stock is in your shoulder, and thus is supported at one end.

If you wanted the best control over the musket when moving it up and down and left to right where would you want to put your support hand? Would you want your support hand in close (near your firing hand), in the middle (dead center) of the musket, or as close as you could get it to the muzzle?

Obviously you would want to get the second point of support as close to the muzzle as possible.


Here is an exercise to try to illistrate the point I'm trying to make. Pick several targets out in your area, and stagger the distance both from left to right and front to back (ie. target #1 - 50 yards, target #2 - 350 yards, target number #3 - 175 yards, target #4 - 25 yards, etc).

Now take the longest rifle you have avalible to you (it can be a hunting rifle, AR15A2, M1 Garand, etc....the longer the rifle the better) and put your support hand as close as you can to the firing hand and transition from targets 1 - 4 as fast as you can. Do this a couple times. Now move the support hand the middle of the gun (ie. as close to center as possible) and transition from targets 1-4 as fast as you can. Do this a couple times. Now, move the support hand as far out on the forend as possible and transition from targets 1-4 as fast as you can. Do this a couple times. (try this same exercise, once with the magwell hold and once with your support hand as far forward on the fore end as possible and you will quickly figure out which technique gives you the best control and the most advantages when driving the gun.)

I'm sure you will find that the further you get the hand out on the fore end the easier it is to control the gun, the quicker your transitions from one target to another, and when the support hand is in close you tend to "over shoot" your target but when it's further out, you can stop on a dime.

Moving the hand or vertical foregrip as close as you can get it to the unsupported end of the gun (ie. the muzzle) provides the best level of support and also helps you drive and control the gun much better.

With the vertical foregrip I'm constantly pushing rearward on the vertical foregrip, thus providing constant rearward pressure into my shoulder.

While at first having the vertical foregrip all the way forward feels ackward, I find that my support shoulder and arm doesn't fatigue as quickly and I can hold the gun up on target for longer periods of time.

When I grip the vertical foregrip, my support hand looks just like it does when shooting a pistol. My fingers are "hooked" around the grip and my thumb is pointing the same direction as the muzzle. I hold as high up on the grip as possible.



**************************************************************

When shooting without a vertical fore grip:


When I'm NOT using a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand around the handguard (like you would wrap your hand around any cylinder shaped object), with my index finger pointing in the same direction as the muzzle (resting on the 9 o'clock rail).

I place my hand as far forward on the fore end as possible while keeping my index finger on the fore end.

With my hand in this position I can provide constant rearward pressure into my shoulder. Having my hand in this position provides much more control and I can drive the gun much better and stop on a target without overshooting it and having to come back to it. I have noticed that when I have my hand closer to the delta ring that I can't stop the gun as quickly when transitioning from one target to another at medium to long distances and often over shoot or go past the target and have to come back to it.

Here is a visual of how I hold the gun without a vertical foregrip and can provide constant rearward pressure and have much better control:


Larger version of above photo.



The reason I use my finger / thumb to point is I have noticed over the years that your eyes naturally want to go where ever your digits point and your digits will naturally index on a point that your eyes are already fixated on.




Semper Fi,
Jeff

[Robb Jensen]

I grab the rail/tube at the side (9 o'clock).




I do have the stubby Tangodown grips, but essentially use them as a handstop.





I run the support hand further back when the targets are up closer.

[Gentle Ben]

All the info is much appreciated. I have a course coming up, and will be trying the method of putting my hand as far forward along the fore-end as possible, without a VFG.

up to now, I've run an M6X light with a tapeswitch on my SBR. Tapeswitch was attached to the right side of the magwell, so I could get it with my fingertips of my support hand. worked fine, but am now switching to a Surefire in an offset mount.

[ZGXtreme]

My fingers never touch the magazine. My pinkie sits on the magwell lip, middle and index on the rail, thumb pointed forward. I really like it for SBRs, but is not so great if you need to get to a light and aren't using a pressure pad.

Ben, I utilize this same technique as F2S and find it quite efficient. I'd recommend trying and if it worked for you then bingo! The hold is more or less reminicient of the pic below posted by GotM4 when he uses his Stubby Tango Down VFG. Substitute the VFG for the front of the lower receiver and it is essentially the same hold.

I do have the stubby Tangodown grips, but essentially use them as a handstop.

I just recommend compiling a list of recommendations then hitting the range and figuring out was is best for you. Best of luck bro.

[Gentle Ben]

will definitely try to vary my routine. until now, the majority of the time I've maintained the magwell grip regardless of range/circumstances. looks like I'll have to program myself to shift my grip from out on the fore-end to the magwell as targets dictate.

[Tony Siciliano]

Solid thread. I didn't know what to expect when I first started reading it, but I was glad to read solid recommendations and ideas.

Great post Jeff - I think you covered almost everything about the subject.

I teach folk to use the grip they feel most comfortable with, depending on the application. As was mentioned above, in a CQB or confined space situation, a grip far back on the for grip or on the mag well can be fine.

I find that short folks have a real hard time reaching out to the fore end.

I'd just echo Failure2Stop's warning - if you're going to grab the mag well, watch your fingers around the ejection port / port cover. Self inflicted stovepipes / double feeds suck.

[markm]

Grabbing the magwell is a bad idea, but not for the reason you think. Holding the mag will NOT effect reliability. The two issues is that it puts your thumb near the bolt catch and the second issue is that it is not a very stable shooting position for moving and shooting.

I went and revisited this method last night at the house. The probem I get with it isn't as you describe. My problem is I wrap around the mag well really far and my finger tips start getting over the ejection port. Obviously this isn't good either.

[rob_s]

If your thumb is near the bolt catch you're holding it wrong. Hold it thumbs-forward, just like a pistol.

[C4IGrant]

If your thumb is near the bolt catch you're holding it wrong. Hold it thumbs-forward, just like a pistol.

Of course you can try and do it that way, but in a haste (like someone is shooting at you), I think your hand will be everywhere (near the ejection port, near the bolt catch, etc). This is why it just isn't a good idea.

I think the other simple fact is that when you are shooting at someone or they are shooting at you, you are MOVING!
The more forward grip lends itself to better accuracy/control in this instance.


C4