Is reliability still a real issue

[Cruncher Block]

I get the argument that a pump is less likely to mess up in terms of pure mechanical reliability. The operator is in control of whether or not that next round chambers, not gas pressure or inertia.

But pumps also introduce the possibility of short-stroking.

Is it the gun's fault? No.

Is it a training issue? Sure.

But does it matter when the next round really needs to be chambered? I don't think so.

I sometimes see pumps recommended for people who don't have time or motivation to train. The justification is their simplicity and reliability. My point is these are the people most likely to short-stroke the pump under stress. For them, I'm not sure it's reliable at all.

[CAVDOC]

there are some very reliable semi's out there for sure. One thing I always notice when my club has combat shotgun matches (this is with people that run 11-87's primarily but some benellis and others too) is many are talking about ammo- I need to run a load that goes at least xyz velocity/ abc dram equiv or my gun won't function. The pumps can be subject to malfunctions from short stroking of course, but the ability to have more ammo options- like low recoil slugs and buck shot and cheap walmart target loads- gives an edge to the pump as a more versatile platform.

[Alaskapopo]

there are some very reliable semi's out there for sure. One thing I always notice when my club has combat shotgun matches (this is with people that run 11-87's primarily but some benellis and others too) is many are talking about ammo- I need to run a load that goes at least xyz velocity/ abc dram equiv or my gun won't function. The pumps can be subject to malfunctions from short stroking of course, but the ability to have more ammo options- like low recoil slugs and buck shot and cheap walmart target loads- gives an edge to the pump as a more versatile platform.

The pump can run all kinds of ammo. However semis are better than people give them credit for. My M2 runs ammo with 2 3/4 dram and reduced recoil slugs and most reduced recoil buck.
pat

[ST911]

Ammo is a significant variable in semis, less so to irrelevant in pumps. Some semi systems will function across a broader range of performance than others. Semis can be made quirky with various mods.

If using a shotgun, I prefer a pump for its raw versatility without a lot of bother. I need them to work with low impulse specialty munitions, light bird shot, etc, and I cannot count on semis to do so.

[arizona98tj]

It is interesting in that semi-auto rifles...such as AR-15s, are fully accepted as a "fighting" rifle but yet semi-auto shotguns....well....for some reason, lots of people get all funny about relying on them for home defense, etc. Shouldn't we all be using revolvers too instead of semi-auto pistols?

I've taken a number of shotgun courses....2 and 4 days in length, using both a good reliable Benelli pump and a good reliable FNH SLP. I do not claim to be an expert....and I don't claim that my shotgun is a "fighting" shotgun. I write software for a living and would bet that the majority of other folks don't rely on their rifle or shotgun for "fighting" for a living either. I see a notable gap between firearms used for fighting and self-defense.

That being said, I'll agree that a pump shotgun in the hands of a good and well practiced shooter will do a great job of taking care of business. At the same time, so will a semi-auto. The difference, IMO, is that many folks don't commit to the necessary practice to become good with their pump...I mean good with their pump under pressure and stress.

I've short stroked my pump enough times in shoot houses and timed range drills to realize that even with the amount of practice I do, there is a always a chance it will happen....and it does. I've seen folks much higher up the shooting chain than me do it too. The less you practice, the more often it will happen, especially when the stress is high and the adrenalin is pumping. On the other hand, I've yet to ever short stroke my semi-auto....regardless of stress level or adrenalin surge.

As I said, I have both types of shotguns in my gun safe. IMO, a person who can't put in the necessary practice (at higher stress levels) is better served by quality semi-auto. I say quality only because if I were recommending a pump, I would say quality pump shotgun too.

I had the pleasure of attending a 4 day advanced tactical shotgun course this past December. Of the 13 students in attendance, I don't recall if any were shooting pumps....everyone was shooting an auto-loader if I remember correctly. We each put about 1,000 rounds of 12 gauge down range along with about 300 rounds of handgun. I recall zero breakdowns. Compare that to the 2 or 3 broken pump guns I typically see in the 2 or 4 day introductory shotgun courses I've attended, where pumps outnumber semi-autos about 8~10 to 1. I've never seen an auto-loader break at a training course I've attended. I've also never seen a $300 auto-loader in the course.

In summary....I personally believe that a shooter with limited stress induced practice time is better served by a good auto-loader, especially if that person is going to be "fighting" with that shotgun. (not too likely, IMO)

[Alaskapopo]

I think semi auto shotguns got a bad repuation mostly due to the Remington autoloaders. 1100's and 1187's suck. You see a lot break down in three gun. Benelli's however run and run and run. It also comes from people shooting really light loads and expecting their autos to work. That is like handloading your semi auto pistol with loads well below spec and expecting it to run. I still use a pump for work because of my need to use speciality rounds for bear hazing. (ie cracker shells that launch a projectile that explodes near the bear causing it to run in theory) These shells are way to light to run an action on an auto. With the pump if something goes wrong like the bear runs at me instead of away I am just one pump away from a slug. (this has happened to me before) If I were going to use a shotgun as a fighting gun primarliy I would go with my Benelli M2 or a tactical version of my R&R Saiga. But personally for fighting guns I much prefer rifles and carbines.
Pat

[jmoore]

>>But pumps also introduce the possibility of short-stroking.<<

For those who either teach shotgun classes, or have been through a lot of them as students - With modern SA shotguns as a a comparison.......... Do you see more problems with the SA actions failing, or with the operators short-stroking their pumps?

john

[Alaskapopo]

>>But pumps also introduce the possibility of short-stroking.<<

For those who either teach shotgun classes, or have been through a lot of them as students - With modern SA shotguns as a a comparison.......... Do you see more problems with the SA actions failing, or with the operators short-stroking their pumps?

john

In matches I see more short stocking in pumps than semi's failing.
Pat

[Canonshooter]

I think semi auto shotguns got a bad repuation mostly due to the Remington autoloaders. 1100's and 1187's suck.

Pat, you need not be so reserved in expressing your opinion.

Seriously, what do you see breaking in the 1100/11-87s? I've had a 11-87 for about 20 years and though I do not have thousands of rounds through it nor have I ever attended a gruelling shotgun course with it, it has never failed me. I am actually in the process of doing some mods with it so any insight on the specifics of those break downs is appreciated.

On another note, I think it also comes down to expectations. If I were to use a short-barrelled shotgun for home defense, the ability to digest any kind of ammo or go thousands (or even hundreds) of rounds without cleaning would be non-factors. The ability to shoot it accurately with quick follow up - using loads intended for such applications - would be of primary importance to me. If a running gun battle ensued and I was still alive after emptying the SG, I'd reach for the AR.

Regardless of brand, a SA will always require greater care in maintenance and ammo selction. But at least in a home defense scenario where the action would likely be fast and the round count limited, I'd feel more confortable with the SA (even a Remington).

[Alaskapopo]

Pat, you need not be so reserved in expressing your opinion.

Seriously, what do you see breaking in the 1100/11-87s? I've had a 11-87 for about 20 years and though I do not have thousands of rounds through it nor have I ever attended a gruelling shotgun course with it, it has never failed me. I am actually in the process of doing some mods with it so any insight on the specifics of those break downs is appreciated.

On another note, I think it also comes down to expectations. If I were to use a short-barrelled shotgun for home defense, the ability to digest any kind of ammo or go thousands (or even hundreds) of rounds without cleaning would be non-factors. The ability to shoot it accurately with quick follow up - using loads intended for such applications - would be of primary importance to me. If a running gun battle ensued and I was still alive after emptying the SG, I'd reach for the AR.

Regardless of brand, a SA will always require greater care in maintenance and ammo selction. But at least in a home defense scenario where the action would likely be fast and the round count limited, I'd feel more confortable with the SA (even a Remington).

Generally the gas seals. There are some sayings in three gun about Remington 1100's and 1187's. First you need two to finish a match because one will crap out on you. 2. If your remington goes down there will be 20 people there that know how to fix it because they have been through allt he issues as well. I have personally seen more Remington autos stop in a match or half malfunctions than any other brand. With Benelli's it very rare. Like I said earlier I have only cleaned my M2 once or twice in a few years and it keeps working.
Pat