Is reliability still a real issue

[Canonshooter]

Generally the gas seals.

Yes, those are a given. They're cheap enough to replace frequently.

Edit - with the 26" vent rib, pressure compensated barrel cut down to 18-3/4 inches, my 11-87 still cycles Remington Dove & Quail #8 low base loads - this with an old o-ring that was stretched and hardened. I have now installed a "seal activator" and a new o-ring, and will be giving the Federal Personal Defense PD13200 and Remington Express Managed Recoil Buckshot RL12BK00 loads a try next weekend.

[Noodles]

I read people beating up on the Mossberg 930 SPX quite a bit and it pisses me off. When you buy a new car the owners manual tells you not to drive it hard for X amount of miles. Kind of like automobiles, firearms become more reliable (run better) after a break in period. I tell anyone that will listen to me that your defensive weapons need a minimum of 200-300 (sometimes more, sometimes less) rounds put through it before you should use it to defend your life and expect any dependability from it.

The first thing I did with my 930 was clean it, lube it, and then over the course of several hours put 300 rounds through it, while cleaning it lightly in-between strings of fire. It now has 500 rounds though it and hasn't experienced a single failure of any sort. I'd run my 930 against any other shotgun at this time. It is hands down as reliable as any pump action shotgun, and it's a hell of a lot faster.

THIS is why I love the internet!!

I just wrapped up a three day shotgun class. We ran 100+ bird, 400+ buck, and 100+ slug each. Three people in the class unfortunately brought Mossberg 930s. I know for a fact two people are selling them. I think the third guy will probably sell his too.

Issues with them... These gun have absolutely no thought put into the design. They are a mash up of a couple other guns. Like the Mossberg pump guns, there is no way to slug changeover without dumping rounds on the ground. In a gun that only holds 4+1 to 7+1 rounds, dumping rounds on the ground is absolutely unacceptable to me. During a drill that had a fully loaded tube of 00buck and hitting steel plates using only slugs, in my benelli, I was able to drop one 00 round on the ground, load two slugs (one tube, one chamber), fire, load on more in the tube, the twice more. The 930 users, had to cycle cycle cycle, dropping three rounds on the ground, then load three slugs in the tube, the cycle again, then fire those, it was stupid.

Next, one of the 930 users, had a complete failure with her gun. It would load one, fire but the click on the next round, could not fire two. They are selling both of these guns.

All three users had malfunctions. So, no, not as reliable as benelli to which he only issues I saw with the m2 in class and Costa's m1 was they needed lube on the third day.

Thats great that YOUR 930 didn't have reliability issues when you ran it. But, do you really think you've run your gun to the same level of abuse that a shotgun class would require???

I like autos plenty. But, using slugs or buckshot, I don't really agree with a trained user that the auto is all that much faster than a pump. I ran my, saw some other guys run their, and costa run his 870s just as fast in practical drills using mil/full power compare to autos. If you're running bird, sure, I can see it. But with buck/slug, the recoil impulse is high on both just staying on target on both takes the majority of the split time.

"Like automobiles" (I call them cars) they may become more reliable after some use (they don't, but still) no amount of use will fix the Honda civic into a BMW. There are design/feature/function flaws on the 930 platform.

After what I saw in class, if you haven't had an issue with a 930, you haven't actually run it hard. Get pissed at me all you like, but that's the truth.

[Alaskapopo]

THIS is why I love the internet!!

I just wrapped up a three day shotgun class. We ran 100+ bird, 400+ buck, and 100+ slug each. Three people in the class unfortunately brought Mossberg 930s. I know for a fact two people are selling them. I think the third guy will probably sell his too.

Issues with them... These gun have absolutely no thought put into the design. They are a mash up of a couple other guns. Like the Mossberg pump guns, there is no way to slug changeover without dumping rounds on the ground. In a gun that only holds 4+1 to 7+1 rounds, dumping rounds on the ground is absolutely unacceptable to me. During a drill that had a fully loaded tube of 00buck and hitting steel plates using only slugs, in my benelli, I was able to drop one 00 round on the ground, load two slugs (one tube, one chamber), fire, load on more in the tube, the twice more. The 930 users, had to cycle cycle cycle, dropping three rounds on the ground, then load three slugs in the tube, the cycle again, then fire those, it was stupid.

Next, one of the 930 users, had a complete failure with her gun. It would load one, fire but the click on the next round, could not fire two. They are selling both of these guns.

All three users had malfunctions. So, no, not as reliable as benelli to which he only issues I saw with the m2 in class and Costa's m1 was they needed lube on the third day.

Thats great that YOUR 930 didn't have reliability issues when you ran it. But, do you really think you've run your gun to the same level of abuse that a shotgun class would require???

I like autos plenty. But, using slugs or buckshot, I don't really agree with a trained user that the auto is all that much faster than a pump. I ran my, saw some other guys run their, and costa run his 870s just as fast in practical drills using mil/full power compare to autos. If you're running bird, sure, I can see it. But with buck/slug, the recoil impulse is high on both just staying on target on both takes the majority of the split time.

"Like automobiles" (I call them cars) they may become more reliable after some use (they don't, but still) no amount of use will fix the Honda civic into a BMW. There are design/feature/function flaws on the 930 platform.

After what I saw in class, if you haven't had an issue with a 930, you haven't actually run it hard. Get pissed at me all you like, but that's the truth.

The Mossberg is not the best example of an autoloader. Lets compare Benelli M4's and M2's. I consider myself a trained user because well I have been trained quite a bit on the pump in the academy and numerious trainings since that time 13 years ago. With the auto it has been self training so if anything I should be biased on the pump. I have ran numerious drills comparing my M2 to my 870 both with similar set ups.



I found my times with the M2 significantly faster. I had a set of 6 auto poppers set up at 10 yards and just ran through them as fast as I could and my times with the Benelli were coming in 1 to 1.5 seconds faster than the 870. I do know some people who can run a pump faster than I can run my pump, but they can't run their pumps faster than I can run my autos. I have found that reduced recoil buck is actually lighter than the bird shot loads I run for three gun. With slugs I find the autos even easier to fire faster because of less recoil with the autoloader system even the M2 which for an auto kicks quite a bit.
Pat

[Noodles]

The Mossberg is not the best example of an autoloader.

God damn right it's not!


I'll concede on the pump/semi for speed. My point was really that given unless you are 5m or in from the target and you're driving a visible hole into them... That it's going to take longer per shot just to aim than the pump will hold you up vs the auto. So don't get caught up in it.

That said, the full auto rate of 12ga shotguns is ~300rpm, or about 1/2 that of a carbine and 1/4 that of a select-fire handgun, relevant because unless a carbine or handgun, you can actually WATCH a semi shot gun cycle. You can see the bolt move, you can feel the impulse of it locking back up after the shot. I'd be willing to bet that the bolt velocity on the semi is so low, a trained user with a pump can get a peak match on that velocity. As an aside, I watched costa run a pump faster than I thought possible.

[Campbell]

I have an old M1 Super 90. I guess its been the most reliable weapon I've owned...quit round count at 2k, ymmv.

[Noodles]

I have an old M1 Super 90. I guess its been the most reliable weapon I've owned...quit round count at 2k, ymmv.

I'm in at least 5k on mine, but yea, no real count. It ran perfect for me for class, but I did see an M2 start getting FTE. I offered some froglube for it and it ran the rest of the class like a top. Same thing happened to another m1, added lube and no issues, they were both just a little dry.

[Guns-up.50]

I found my times with the M2 significantly faster. I had a set of 6 auto poppers set up at 10 yards and just ran through them as fast as I could and my times with the Benelli were coming in 1 to 1.5 seconds faster than the 870. I do know some people who can run a pump faster than I can run my pump, but they can't run their pumps faster than I can run my autos. I have found that reduced recoil buck is actually lighter than the bird shot loads I run for three gun. With slugs I find the autos even easier to fire faster because of less recoil with the autoloader system even the M2 which for an auto kicks quite a bit.
Pat

I agree with you there is not doubt that autos are faster, but the question is about reliability, and if I were going to take a gun into a fighting zone where its going to be beat to hell and I may not have the chance to clean it, I would take the slower pump before I took a choking auto loader. I am not saying autos are not reliable, but I would say pumps are more reliable than autos.

[Alaskapopo]

I agree with you there is not doubt that autos are faster, but the question is about reliability, and if I were going to take a gun into a fighting zone where its going to be beat to hell and I may not have the chance to clean it, I would take the slower pump before I took a choking auto loader. I am not saying autos are not reliable, but I would say pumps are more reliable than autos.

Not all autos are created equal however I have found the M4 and M2 to be very reliable. I have cleaned my m2 once my M4 that i sold I think I cleaned twice in 3 years and not because it needed more because I felt guilty. The M4 is good enough for the Marine Corps to use as well.
Pat

[Guns-up.50]

Not all autos are created equal however I have found the M4 and M2 to be very reliable. I have cleaned my m2 once my M4 that i sold I think I cleaned twice in 3 years and not because it needed more because I felt guilty. The M4 is good enough for the Marine Corps to use as well.
Pat

True, but I cant comment on the Benellis for I dont have much time with them, the Marines also used mossberg 500s when I was in 4 years ago today that doesn't qualify the mossberg to be the best , but I agree there are some fine autos fit for gun fighting. I personally feel more comfortable with the 870 , someone should do a m4 torture test

[RWK]

...is pump action still the "default" choice?

If I didn't already have a tricked-out 870P, my "go-to" shotgun would be a Benelli semi-auto. I have no concerns over their reliability. The reason I'd go for the semi-auto is to take the "pump" out of the equation. However, I run an 870 pretty well and so, can't justify the cash to set up a Benelli; especially going the SBS route, which I would surely do.