Project: Break my J frame.

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

Guys,

For the past few years I have spent less and less time playing with autoloading handguns. My main problem with them is that they are, frankly, impractical for every day civillian carry. I still play with my .45s and my plastic guns but I never carry them.

Basically, here is my reasoning (from a post of mine last year).

I think the J-frame in airweight format is probably the best all-around gun for the average civillian. Here is why:

1. Very simple. The Revolver has no safety, no movable sights, no dropable magazines, nothing. Just a gun that you can drop in your pocket and go.

2. Very reliable. While the myth of the unstoppable revolver is BS, it is true that a revolver is more likely to go off when you pull the trigger. Any number of factors from being out of battery due to close contact, empty chamber, jam, missing magazine, etc can curse your autoloader, the J-frame will work in all of the these cicumstances--and if the cylinder is empty keep squeezing.

3. Reasonable cost. Autoloaders are pricey. A Glock 19 is going to run most folks around $520. You are going to need a rigid holster (at least a fobus) and probably at least another spare mag or two. A J-frame will run you $100-200 cheaper.

4. You can throw out the price difference buy purchasing a set of crimson trace laser grips. This is, in the words of LAV, a no brainer fro the J-frame. The laser grip is absolutely perfect for this type of gun. You can practice dry-firing, shooting on the move, barrier shots, etc using the crimson trace grips and save a LOT of time and money at the range. This is especially nice for folks who don't have a range where they can practice practical shooting.

5. Five shots is a serious limitation. I do agree with those who say that 5 shots is the scary minimum. But I do think that the fact that you are much more likely to actually CARRY an ultra-lightweight revolver makes up for a combat autoloader in the glove compartment because you didn't feel like putting it back on before you went in the store.

6. Simplicity (again). A J-frame is really all you need. A simple nylon pocket holster is preferable, but not absolutely needed. You can just put it in your coat pocket (and shoot through it if need be). There is no need to keep up with magaizines and wait for months for holsters or any of the other doo-hickey's that you collect for autoloaders.


So, for the past year I have been mainly practicing with a 442 that I picked up a while back. My EDC is a 342 (Scandium/titanium) worked over by Karl Sokol. But my training gun is a 642 with an xs tritium front sight also installed by Sokol.


I am going to keep a log of my training and round count with the 642. Basically to entertain myself but also to see if any of the information I stumble upon is useful to anyone else.

As of today the 642 has 370rounds through it. 300rounds wwb 130 grain and 50 rounds of +p 158 grain lawman. I also ran 20 rounds of 135 grain gold dot.

I typically carry my 342 in my pocket so that is how I do all my drills. I usually practice like this.

1. 1,2,3 shot sets draw at 21 feet.
2. 1,2,3 shot sets draw and fire while walking backwards.
3. 1,2,3 forwards.
4. 1,2,3 sideways in both directions.
5. Box drills
6. Strong and weak hand drills.
7. 25 yards groups
8. Hail Mary shots at 50 and 100 yards.

I use HKS speed loaders for all reloads.

http://m.flickr.com/photos/52942291@...9219/lightbox/

[Sam]

This goes totally against the high capacity semi auto doctrine.

You should talk to Claude Werner about your training routine. He has developed numerous practice regimens for the J frame.

[500grains]

I have shot grouse in the head with a Smith model 37 aluminum frame 2". THe grouse were not flying though.

[Axcelea]

Hate to nit pick but when mentioning cost and needs you list a spare mag for the Glock which arguably isn't needed under the same thought process of 5 shots of the J-frame, $200 for a J-frame which isn't the case especially when you get into the air-weights and certain models (which can be $900+) and once you ad on the crimson trace grips that is even more money.

Not a big deal and I do agree that a J-frame in the pocket is better then a semi at home but it does seem your holding the semi-autos to higher standards then their bare minimal requirements and then comparing it to a better end J-frame at the low end of pricing. Just a little apples to oranges.

One thing about semis being out of battery, when it comes to double action revolvers they also can end up not firing in close contact such as someone grabbing it and putting pressure on the cylinder. Just something I think gets over looked if your talking about a power struggle for control of a gun.

Good post but those things just stood out to me, well that and I always want a holster.

[R.P.]

Really looking forward to following this. I enjoyed your Glock 26 thread so much I went out and bought one.
I already have a j frame with a crimson trace laser grip so I probably should go ahead and get a set of .38 dies so I can shoot mine more often.

[Joeywhat]

Your primary argument (that people will actually carry a j frame) only holds weight with those that wouldn't otherwise carry a larger gun.

I carry either a full size M&P or M&P Shield every day. I never walk out the door thinking either of those guns are too impractical, and on the few occasions where I don't carry, having a J frame available wouldn't have changed that (I also have a P32 available to carry, typically as a BUG).

Not that I have a problem with people carrying such guns, if it's what you want then have at it, it's certainly better then no gun at all (or a lot of the cheap Saturday night specials some people like to carry...). But I don't agree that it's "the best all-around gun for the average civillian", or that typical autoloaders are impractical for said group. It's the best gun for those that won't carry anything else, and that's about it.

[cbr]

Very well written and I agree 100%.

[Suwannee Tim]

I have shot grouse in the head with a Smith model 37 aluminum frame 2". THe grouse were not flying though.

I've wing shot them with a J frame. While paddling a canoe on the Suwannee River at night. Wait a sec. 500 is banned? Seriously ya'll I really didn't shoot a grouse.

I have carried a J frame then a LCR for years. I have a 22 caliber J to practice with. My wife carries a steel frame J. I agree with Gregg in every respect. The highest capacity, most powerful, coolest, most combat effective semi-auto made is not worth a damn if it is at home.

What did 500grains do to get banned?

[tmanker]

See below.

Guys,

For the past few years I have spent less and less time playing with autoloading handguns. My main problem with them is that they are, frankly, impractical for every day civillian carry. I still play with my .45s and my plastic guns but I never carry them.

Basically, here is my reasoning (from a post of mine last year).

I think the J-frame in airweight format is probably the best all-around gun for the average civillian. Here is why:

Best all-around is too subjective to claim. Too many variables.


1. Very simple. The Revolver has no safety, no movable sights, no dropable magazines, nothing. Just a gun that you can drop in your pocket and go.

Pocket carry sucks for me, but can't argue simplicity. Reloads with revolver are tougher under stress for joe civilian in my opinion.

2. Very reliable. While the myth of the unstoppable revolver is BS, it is true that a revolver is more likely to go off when you pull the trigger. Any number of factors from being out of battery due to close contact, empty chamber, jam, missing magazine, etc can curse your autoloader, the J-frame will work in all of the these cicumstances--and if the cylinder is empty keep squeezing.

In high stress situation I would rather see/hear the slide locking back where I might be apt to keep squeezing trigger with empty cylinder on the revolver. Then again I will need to reload 1/3 as often as revolver.

3. Reasonable cost. Autoloaders are pricey. A Glock 19 is going to run most folks around $520. You are going to need a rigid holster (at least a fobus) and probably at least another spare mag or two. A J-frame will run you $100-200 cheaper.

Money's not an issue and if it were, I would never put a price on my life or others. One should never purchase ccw weapon based on price, ever.

4. You can throw out the price difference buy purchasing a set of crimson trace laser grips. This is, in the words of LAV, a no brainer fro the J-frame. The laser grip is absolutely perfect for this type of gun. You can practice dry-firing, shooting on the move, barrier shots, etc using the crimson trace grips and save a LOT of time and money at the range. This is especially nice for folks who don't have a range where they can practice practical shooting.

Lasers will shit the bed, so I would never base my training around a laser. Too many people ccw weapons with lasers that have poor skills and think they are Chris Costa because they have a laser. I would never encourage someone to use a laser without first mastering the weapon with irons.

5. Five shots is a serious limitation. I do agree with those who say that 5 shots is the scary minimum. But I do think that the fact that you are much more likely to actually CARRY an ultra-lightweight revolver makes up for a combat autoloader in the glove compartment because you didn't feel like putting it back on before you went in the store.

Cylinder width on model 36 is 1.31" and my G19 is 1.18". A j-frame is no easier to carry for me than revolver. Why would I remove my weapon from my person and put it in the glove box? There may be a 2nd or 3rd weapon in the glove box. This is subjective because those committed to concealed carry always have their weapon.

6. Simplicity (again). A J-frame is really all you need. A simple nylon pocket holster is preferable, but not absolutely needed. You can just put it in your coat pocket (and shoot through it if need be). There is no need to keep up with magaizines and wait for months for holsters or any of the other doo-hickey's that you collect for autoloaders.

Pocket carry sucks for me and I will make the claim that joe civilian will draw weapon easier from IWB holster than pocket.

So, for the past year I have been mainly practicing with a 442 that I picked up a while back. My EDC is a 342 (Scandium/titanium) worked over by Karl Sokol. But my training gun is a 642 with an xs tritium front sight also installed by Sokol.


I am going to keep a log of my training and round count with the 642. Basically to entertain myself but also to see if any of the information I stumble upon is useful to anyone else.

As of today the 642 has 370rounds through it. 300rounds wwb 130 grain and 50 rounds of +p 158 grain lawman. I also ran 20 rounds of 135 grain gold dot.

I typically carry my 342 in my pocket so that is how I do all my drills. I usually practice like this.

1. 1,2,3 shot sets draw at 21 feet.
2. 1,2,3 shot sets draw and fire while walking backwards.
3. 1,2,3 forwards.
4. 1,2,3 sideways in both directions.
5. Box drills
6. Strong and weak hand drills.
7. 25 yards groups
8. Hail Mary shots at 50 and 100 yards.

I use HKS speed loaders for all reloads.

http://m.flickr.com/photos/52942291@...9219/lightbox/

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

Pocket carry sucks for me, but can't argue simplicity. Reloads with revolver are tougher under stress for joe civilian in my opinion.

Reloads are probably no harder for most folks since your average person probably doesn't carry a spare mag. If you are Joe tactical and carry a couple of spare mags on your Raven mag carrier then obviously you are going to be much faster.

In high stress situation I would rather see/hear the slide locking back where I might be apt to keep squeezing trigger with empty cylinder on the revolver. Then again I will need to reload 1/3 as often as revolver.

Both have their limitations.

Money's not an issue and if it were, I would never put a price on my life or others. One should never purchase ccw weapon based on price, ever.

True. That's why I employ 6 former Delta operators to protect me at all times.


L

asers will shit the bed, so I would never base my training around a laser. Too many people ccw weapons with lasers that have poor skills and think they are Chris Costa because they have a laser. I would never encourage someone to use a laser without first mastering the weapon with irons.

Lasers shit the bed. Front sights shit the bed. Glocks (increasingly so) shit the bed. Mags split. Springs fail. Ammo Kabooms. Ammo falls apart in the mag. Lighting strikes.

A laser is a useful tool. It is basically something you can train with when live fire is not a realistic possibility. It is also useful for people who wear glasses and use them on their beside the bed weapons. It is also useful because it allows you to shoot from unusual positions. Their advantages wildly outweigh their disadvantages.

ylinder width on model 36 is 1.31" and my G19 is 1.18". A j-frame is no easier to carry for me than revolver. Why would I remove my weapon from my person and put it in the glove box? There may be a 2nd or 3rd weapon in the glove box. This is subjective because those committed to concealed carry always have their weapon.

If you find an air weight J-frame no easier to carry than a Glock 19 then we are simply operating in different universes.

My point is, the vast majority of adults who have lives cannot carry combat autoloaders in IWB holsters 24/7. Not only are they heavy and bulky they will likely result in job-loss for most folks. OTOH, a Scandium J-frame in a concealment pocket holster is light enough and small enough for most people to protect themselves full time. I have been carrying for about 22 years now and I have gone through all the phases. But reality eventually sets in.

Pocket carry sucks for me and I will make the claim that joe civilian will draw weapon easier from IWB holster than pocket.

True. He would also be faster from a competition holster. In fact, you could just walk around with your gun in your hand if you were truly dedicated.

http://www.theonion.com/video/new-la...level-s,26085/