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Thread: Is reliability still a real issue

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    Is reliability still a real issue

    So, for the longest time I always bought into the the idea that a defensive shotgun should be semi for reliability/simplicity purposes, but I recently started attending 3-gun matches using my buddies Benelli, reading into it, etc... Semi shotguns like the Benelli's these days are shooting 50 round stages, hundreds and hundreds of shells a match, probably thousands+ over they "careers" and the number one thing guys look for is always reliability. With semi-auto shotguns achieving this kind of reliability (or maybe they always have?), and the addition of the benefits of more firepower and softer recoil, is pump action still the "default" choice?

    (Disclosure: I do not own a shotgun, still researching, but do have some experience with military and civilian shotguns alike)
    Last edited by J8127; 08-30-12 at 00:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J8127 View Post
    So, for the longest time I always bought into the the idea that a defensive shotgun should be semi for reliability/simplicity purposes, but I recently started attending 3-gun matches using my buddies Benelli, reading into it, etc... Semi shotguns like the Benelli's these days are shooting 50 round stages, hundreds and hundreds of shells a match, probably thousands+ over they "careers" and the number one thing guys look for is always reliability. With semi-auto shotguns achieving this kind of reliability (or maybe they always have?), and the addition of the benefits of more firepower and softer recoil, is pump action still the "default" choice?

    (Disclosure: I do not own a shotgun, still researching, but do have some experience with military and civilian shotguns alike)
    I would say that even though the benelli's are more reliable than most auto loaders, I would still likely take a 870 as a "fighting gun" the rugged reliability simple to use and maintain takes the cake for me. Besides a good shotgunner can work a pump quite fast.
    "Courage is being scared to death ,but saddling up anyways" John wayne

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    I would say it depends primarily on budget.

    If I have $1,000 or so to spend, then sure, default would be a semi.

    If I don't, or don't want to spend that kind of cash, then I can find a good reliable pump for under $200.

    To me, that is what makes shotguns great, a reliable sample can be found for a really good price, and practice ammo runs about the same as 9mm. It is cheap to buy, and cheap to run.

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    I read people beating up on the Mossberg 930 SPX quite a bit and it pisses me off. When you buy a new car the owners manual tells you not to drive it hard for X amount of miles. Kind of like automobiles, firearms become more reliable (run better) after a break in period. I tell anyone that will listen to me that your defensive weapons need a minimum of 200-300 (sometimes more, sometimes less) rounds put through it before you should use it to defend your life and expect any dependability from it.

    The first thing I did with my 930 was clean it, lube it, and then over the course of several hours put 300 rounds through it, while cleaning it lightly in-between strings of fire. It now has 500 rounds though it and hasn't experienced a single failure of any sort. I'd run my 930 against any other shotgun at this time. It is hands down as reliable as any pump action shotgun, and it's a hell of a lot faster.

    The key is to mate the moving parts so instead of working against one another, they move in unison. They other key is to run quality ammunition. I don't skimp on the food for her, nor should you. When you try to save a few dollars on cheap ammunition, you are simply playing the odds with your life.

    People say Wolf ammunition is good to go, I don't disagree with that statement, with a few caveats; European, Russian (Eastern Block), and Chinese weapons. It's fine ammunition for a weapon like an AK variant, because an AK's tolerances are generous, like many other WWI & WWII era weapons. That same principle doesn't apply to 99 percent of the guns produced today because they are built to tighter tolerances on modern equipment.
    Last edited by SW-Shooter; 08-30-12 at 18:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 167 View Post
    I would say it depends primarily on budget.

    If I have $1,000 or so to spend, then sure, default would be a semi.

    If I don't, or don't want to spend that kind of cash, then I can find a good reliable pump for under $200.

    To me, that is what makes shotguns great, a reliable sample can be found for a really good price, and practice ammo runs about the same as 9mm. It is cheap to buy, and cheap to run.
    I still would not say just because budget allows one should get a auto loader. I agree there are many good "fighting" semi auto shotguns, but for the average person a good pump sill serve them better than the need. Honestly even leo/mil a good pump is more than enough. Auto loaders are great for waterfowl and turkeys.
    I just watched an 1100$ auto loader go down price did not help him at all.
    "Courage is being scared to death ,but saddling up anyways" John wayne

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    Quote Originally Posted by SW-Shooter View Post
    I read people beating up on the Mossberg 930 SPX quite a bit and it pisses me off. When you buy a new car the owners manual tells you not to drive it hard for X amount of miles. Kind of like automobiles, firearms become more reliable (run better) after a break in period. I tell anyone that will listen to me that your defensive weapons need a minimum of 200-300 (sometimes more, sometimes less) rounds put through it before you should use it to defend your life and expect any dependability from it.

    The first thing I did with my 930 was clean it, lube it, and then over the course of several hours put 300 rounds through it, while cleaning it lightly in-between strings of fire. It now has 500 rounds though it and hasn't experienced a single failure of any sort. I'd run my 930 against any other shotgun at this time. It is hands down as reliable as any pump action shotgun, and it's a hell of a lot faster.

    The key is to mate the moving parts so instead of working against one another, they move in unison. They other key is to run quality ammunition. I don't skimp on the food for her, nor should you. When you try to save a few dollars on cheap ammunition, you are simply playing the odds with your life.

    People say Wolf ammunition is good to go, I don't disagree with that statement, with a few caveats; European, Russian (Eastern Block), and Chinese weapons. It's fine ammunition for a weapon like an AK variant, because an AK's tolerances are generous, like many other WWI & WWII era weapons. That same principle doesn't apply to 99 percent of the guns produced today because they are built to tighter tolerances on modern equipment.
    Defensive guns should run from round 1. My Benelli M2 has worked every time the trigger has been pulled. I can handle a break in period on a match gun or a fun gun. But if its for defensive use it needs to be reliable from day 1.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
    Firearms Instructor
    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guns-up.50 View Post
    I would say that even though the benelli's are more reliable than most auto loaders, I would still likely take a 870 as a "fighting gun" the rugged reliability simple to use and maintain takes the cake for me. Besides a good shotgunner can work a pump quite fast.
    If I had to fight with a shotgun. (prefer a rifle) I would take a Benelli M2 over my 870's. No matter how good you area with a pump you can shoot an auto faster. Plus the auto lets you know when your out of shells and you don't get that damn click noise when you expected a bang. I tried to keep up in three gun with a pump in the begining but there is no comparision and I am a pump shooter. Where pumps have a place is firing less lethal rounds and breaching.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
    Firearms Instructor
    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    Defensive guns should run from round 1. My Benelli M2 has worked every time the trigger has been pulled. I can handle a break in period on a match gun or a fun gun. But if its for defensive use it needs to be reliable from day 1.
    Pat


    I never stated it didn't run from round one, I merely opined that running the gun until you feel confident about the guns reliability is a necessity. For me I have a process, everyone's will vary, some have none. But, I will never take any firearm straight out of the box and put it directly into personal protection mode. Like I said, doing that will win you a shiny box from Mr. Darwin.

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    I think other folks have effectively touched on my feelings about this issue:

    I would rather have an auto (preferably a Benelli) than a pump. But if you cannot afford an auto, a pump is an excellent option (after an AR and a Glock or M&P).

    And, yes, a pump is simpler and more reliable than an auto. But, then again, a lever- or bolt-action is simpler and more reliable than an auto-loading rifle. Like the rifle, though, for a general purpose weapon, I'll take an auto before the others. That's not to say the others are useless or poor options, but they are better suited for specialized roles (competition, breaching/less lethal, dangerous game hunting, precision long-range shooting, extreme lightweight guns, &c.) than the autos. And the autos, in turn, are better suited toward general usage (defense and hunting).

    I'm not concerned about the speed of a pump, lever, or bolt: A skilled user can make fresh spent cartridges nearly as fast with them as an unskilled user can with an auto. But the manipulations do concern me, particularly given that the overwhelming majority of end users will buy the weapon, play with it for a day or two, shoot it at the range once or twice, it at all, and then throw it under the bed, in the closet, or into the gunsafe and then never look upon it again.

    If I were going to utilize a shotgun for combat, I would take a Benelli M4, then an M1 or M2, before any pump, and a good auto-loading carbine (AR, AK, M1, &c.) before either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    Defensive guns should run from round 1.
    Pat
    Amen to this!!!!!!!!

    It never stops to amaze me how some people will accept a weapon malfunctioning just because its new and not broken in.

    I think we would all agree some weapon systems will work better after some work is done to them, but that is recognized from the very beginning. After the work, the weapon still needs to be fully tested and if worked on right no malfunctions occur.

    The same goes for shotguns. The only drawback to the SA shotgun IMO as far as reliability goes is it's pickyness with light loads, but even then knowing what type of ammo runs through your gun is all part of the know your gun big picture.

    Personally I'm a SA shotgun guy, but with the right training and motivation a solid shooter can do some impressive things with either system.
    "In the end, it is not about the hardware, it's about the "software". Amateurs talk about hardware (equipment), professionals talk about software (training and mental readiness)" Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. On Combat

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