Reload Techniques w/Poll

[Yojimbo]

Todd,

Yes, I'm a Glock user so there's another reason to get an MP!

I discovered what you are talking about when I got my USP in 96. I found using the trigger finger on the mag release worked really well and let you pretty much maintain your firing grip.

[tkoglman]

In gunfights, the most common reaction to running a gun dry is thinking that you have had a stoppage.

Most people lose the ability to count rounds, and their perception of reality gets affected to the point that they fire more rounds than they realize.

When they shoot the gun dry, they do not realize they have fired so many rounds and they think the weapon has malfunctioned. Many times shooters will automatically begin "tap, rack, bang" on an empty weapon.

This is why some have advocated reloading as the primary immediate action.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

For when the gun is run dry, same drill for my AR's and pistols, I take the empty and retain in my dump pouch. (We are assuming that situational concerns permit this, otherwise they are dropped) Then, grab a fresh mag and insert that into the gun.

If I'm reloading from a partial mag, then I retain the partial mag in my dump pouch in the exact same manner.

Either way, all reloads are managed so that I'm handling only one mag at a time, I can see where some might like the idea of having the gun with just one in the snout for a minimal time period, but I'm not a fan of dropping mags and awkward hand motions.

[ToddG]

In gunfights, the most common reaction to running a gun dry is thinking that you have had a stoppage.

Source? I've never been in a gunfight but having talked to and trained with plenty of folks who have, this is the first time I've heard this. Also, based on a fair bit of FOF training as a student, teacher, and role-player I haven't found this to be "the most common reaction" in those encounters.

[Failure2Stop]

In gunfights, the most common reaction to running a gun dry is thinking that you have had a stoppage.

In what context and from what orginization?

I have found the opposite to be true, and that it is highly dependant on training.

This is why some have advocated reloading as the primary immediate action.

There are schools that work from a common themes concept, where certain steps are mirrored throughout different manipulations. With some of these, the corrective action for a visible obstruction is almost identical to a dry reload due to the way the manipulations are taught.

These seem to do well in bringing inexperienced or poorly trained shooters to a decent proficiency level fairly quickly, but will some techniques will be "unlearned" as the shooter progresses past the basic techniques.

[tkoglman]

The context is police involved shootings. I think the fact that few police officers are actually "gun guys" these days may skew a lot of the discussion on what people do in gunfights and what type of training is appropriate.

I spend most of my time training the very new and the "part-time" shooters (those who do it only when they have to). Apart from some very progressive departments and tactical teams, this is regrettably the norm in law enforcement.

So it is very true, these things are dependant on the level of training and mindset of those involved. Also, unfortunately, is the fact that most police officers who get into gunfights are just your "average" shooters. I have not yet seen a study done that differentiates the outcomes and experiences of gunfights based the training level of those involved.

The last FBI study I read - I believe they studied somewhere around 80 officers involved in shootings- only two were involved in any organized shooting outside of work. That is a shame and it also makes training difficult as, I believe, what may work for a well trained and motivated shooter may be a poor technique for the majority of officers.

[Charles]

"may skew a lot of the discussion on what people do in gunfights and what type of training is appropriate."

That’s the truest thing said thus far. It also happens to be something (like a lot of things) that no one wants to look at and analyze. For all intense purposes- all of what we "know" happens in a gun fight, has come from poorly trained, poorly lead, unmotivated police officers. In short… the inept. What do you think the difference in ‘knowledge” one would get if instead they were to build a data base on say… SOF shooters. What do you think the difference in performance would be? What do you think the difference would be in the skills they could perform under stress?
It seems to me that the “service” community as a whole is the only “group” that gets its “corporate knowledge” from the average, or worst performers. Imagine the mountaineering community getting there knowledge from what the average could do. Could you imagine the average soccer moms ability to fly having an effect on what a fighter pilot could do? Yet that is exactly what the “defensive” world has done.


sorry for the drift...

[markm]

[
For a LEO this might be more complicated, as duty belt real estate is at a premium today. Still, most LEOs carry at least two spare high-capacity magazines. Beyond Revenge of the Zombies it's hard to imagine a realistic scenario in which both (a) you'd need more ammo than that and (b) you've got a chance of winning. Half a mag's worth of ammo isn't going to turn the tide if the Mongol hordes come over the wall.

In the active shooter scenario it can be an issue. I remember reading an account of one of the shoot em ups where an officer early to the event shot himself out of ammo and had to radio for more. I think there was a relatively long range exchange of fire between the copper and the nut job.

[ToddG]

demi -- OK, I'll happily grant that a specific instance can be a far outlier. Just like both your primary and backup could both fail ... so carry a third gun (which some people do). And if it fails? Etc. Another question that comes to mind, of course, is whether that officer could have achieved anything with another magazine that he didn't achieve with the first three?

Did the officer in the story you referenced leave ammo behind at some point? If so, it could be the first example I'm aware of demonstrating that a tac load may have made a difference in a CONUS/ccw/OIS situation.

[markm]

The account didn't go into that much detail. Granted it is a rare situation, but shoot em ups are becoming the hip way to deal with your problems these days. Sadly, it's a way for pathetic pukes to get their 15 minutes.