Is the RRA CAR or Mid-length really that bad?

[jstone]

I wonder the same thing when people here recommend Colt like its Gospel.

Even NON Colt owners recommend Colt first.

I think the reason most recommend colt is due to name recognition and quality. If someone is new to ar's there likely to know the colt brand, and probably have never heard of bravo company or DD. I have had locals ask me what they should get, and i always recommend bcm. Rarely has anyone heard of them.

I think that iw the main reason colt gets the recommendation most often.

[BufordTJustice]

Well, to recommend something you haven't owned is a little ridiculous, that I'll give you....


I guess what got me more than the BCM recommendation (I'm in no position to comment negatively on BCM) in the post that I was originally addressing was the whole mid-length bit.

Why should I trust some guy on the internet, that a BCM mid-length is soooo much better than, say, a Colt 6920, or (gasp) even a BCM carbine length? I owned more than one mid-length carbine - note, I said owned, like, past tense. The mid-length offered nothing to me.

I think there is a very good reason why Pat Rogers chooses to exclusively employ BCM midlength (and, going forward, BFH) carbines as training guns in his classes.

Midlength = longer bolt life, lower gas system pressure, less stress on bolt lugs, more reliable extraction, slower cyclic rate, & slower/later bolt unlocking.

Even if you didn't notice the smoother recoil impulse, there is virtually no downside to a midlength gas system on a quality 16" barrel carbine.

It doesn't obsolete the carbine gas system, but it is certainly a technical improvement.

[HKUSP.40]

Believe me...my first AR was a RRA. I now own a BCM.


My BCM was actually CHEAPER than the RRA and it's FAR superior in every aspect. Do yourself a favor and spend the extra $$ (or save some in my case) and buy the BCM. Don't bother with RRA.

I had the same exact attitude..."what's wrong with RRA?...an AR is an AR right?" Trust me, there's a BIG difference. Open the two up side by side (like I have) and you'll see why the BCM is a better rifle.

[jstone]

Well, to recommend something you haven't owned is a little ridiculous, that I'll give you....


I guess what got me more than the BCM recommendation (I'm in no position to comment negatively on BCM) in the post that I was originally addressing was the whole mid-length bit.

Why should I trust some guy on the internet, that a BCM mid-length is soooo much better than, say, a Colt 6920, or (gasp) even a BCM carbine length? I owned more than one mid-length carbine - note, I said owned, like, past tense. The mid-length offered nothing to me.

I do not have any carbine length gas systems anymore. Its not because the mid is so much better. It just ended up that way. I do not think the mid length offers to much more then the carbine does, but there is an improvement. I think the recoil impulse is slightly softer. The people that say they are so much better are usually just fan boys that offer know real justification. some state factual reasons why it is better. While both my 14.5's have been completely reliable even with low powered 223 ammo. I would give the reliability edge to carbine length systems overall.

[BufordTJustice]

I think the reason most recommend colt is due to name recognition and quality. If someone is new to ar's there likely to know the colt brand, and probably have never heard of bravo company or DD. I have had locals ask me what they should get, and i always recommend bcm. Rarely has anyone heard of them.

I think that iw the main reason colt gets the recommendation most often.

I think they also often recommend them because they are guaranteed to have: milspec gas ports, mil spec receiver extensions, mil spec barrel steel, mil spec (tested/verified) bolts/extractors, quality construction, & consistent assembly methods.

You can recommend one with the knowledge that there is very little chance the person to whom you're making the rec will come back here and shit on you for recommending a sub-par boomstick no matter how hard they choose to run it.

EDIT: I also run BCM for my patrol/SD/HD rifle.

[DeltaSierra]

I think there is a very good reason why Pat Rogers chooses to exclusively employ BCM midlength (and, going forward, BFH) carbines as training guns in his classes.

Midlength = longer bolt life, lower gas system pressure, less stress on bolt lugs, more reliable extraction, slower cyclic rate, & slower/later bolt unlocking.

Even if you didn't notice the smoother recoil impulse, there is virtually no downside to a midlength gas system on a quality 16" barrel carbine.

It doesn't obsolete the carbine gas system, but it is certainly a technical improvement.

The perceived benefits of the mid-length gas system seem to me to be strictly theoretical.

If a mid-length floats your boat, whatever - why should I care?
It isn't a solution to any problems I have with a properly built carbine however...

Instead or having new shooters getting all wrapped up in this nonsense, it would be much better if they would buy a high quality carbine (Colt would be a great place to start...) and learn to shoot...

[BufordTJustice]

The perceived benefits of the mid-length gas system seem to me to be strictly theoretical.

If a mid-length floats your boat, whatever - why should I care?
It isn't a solution to any problems I have with a properly built carbine however...

Instead or having new shooters getting all wrapped up in this nonsense, it would be much better if they would buy a high quality carbine (Colt would be a great place to start...) and learn to shoot...

I don't disagree with your last statement, which is why I recommend Colt on a 5:1 ratio with any other brand to new shooters. It prevents confusion.

But the improvements are hardly theoretical. I'm gonna hazard a guess that there is a VERY good reason why Eugene Stoner's last design project was at KAC, creating a "mid length" gas system for the AR10 and the AR15 (which is now called an intermediate length). He obviously identified several design issues with employing a carbine length gas system on a 14.5" barrel. I'm fairly certain that these issues were only exacerbated by increasing the barrel length in front of the gas block (delivering more pressure over a longer period of time) as seen in 16" carbine gas designs.

But what does he know about the AR platform, anyhow?

Again, I have had 6 new shooters buy into Colt 6920's this year alone based on my recommendation....it's a quality gun. Period.

But for you to slam the midlength gas system as being tantamount to pixie dust does a disservice to the dozens of quality companies who are beginning to employ it. Noveske, Daniel Defense, BCM, Centurion, Rainier Arms, LMT (in the MRP), KAC, JP Rifles, etc......they would all beg to differ that there is no substantive difference between CAR and middy gas systems.

You're wrong on that one.

EDIT: Increased bolt life is not a perceived benefit, it IS a benefit. Who wants to decrease bolt life?

[BufordTJustice]

Also, please explain to Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb how midlength is only of "theoretical" benefit. The carbines they use in their classes are middies and I'll bet they run more rounds through each of their loaner guns in a year than any of us do in ten years. Bolts get expensive....

[MistWolf]

...Midlength = longer bolt life...less stress on bolt lugs, more reliable extraction, slower cyclic rate, & slower/later bolt unlocking...

(Edited out "lower gas pressure" because it is correct and I do not dispute that part)

I question these assumptions. What is the round count of bolts failing in carbine length rifles compared to mid-length rifles? How much stress is placed on the bolt of any AR? How much more stress does the bolt of a carbine length AR experience? How much more reliable is extraction and why? What is the cyclic rate of a properly tuned carbine length AR compared to the cyclic rate of a properly tuned middy?

How much later is the bolt of a middy unlocking compared to the carbine length? I ask because the difference in gas port location between the two systems is about what- 2 inches? How long does it take the bullet to travel those extra 2 inches? If I recall, it's less than a half millisecond. How much difference is that tiny span of time going to make? The bullet will have cleared the muzzle and traveled several feet before the gases have a chance to pressurize the expansion chamber in the carrier enough to get it started moving.

I much prefer the middy for personal reasons, but I find there's not much difference in performance compared shooting side by side a Colt 6920 my buddy has. Before making claims of middy superiority, let's examine the facts

[BufordTJustice]

(Edited out "lower gas pressure" because it is correct and I do not dispute that part)

I question these assumptions. What is the round count of bolts failing in carbine length rifles compared to mid-length rifles? How much stress is placed on the bolt of any AR? How much more stress does the bolt of a carbine length AR experience? How much more reliable is extraction and why? What is the cyclic rate of a properly tuned carbine length AR compared to the cyclic rate of a properly tuned middy?

How much later is the bolt of a middy unlocking compared to the carbine length? I ask because the difference in gas port location between the two systems is about what- 2 inches? How long does it take the bullet to travel those extra 2 inches? If I recall, it's less than a half millisecond. How much difference is that tiny span of time going to make? The bullet will have cleared the muzzle and traveled several feet before the gases have a chance to pressurize the expansion chamber in the carrier enough to get it started moving.

I much prefer the middy for personal reasons, but I find there's not much difference in performance compared shooting side by side a Colt 6920 my buddy has

I don't have to supply you with these numbers, though there are many tests on cyclic rate and other aspects of the platform.

It's not incumbent upon me to defend the CAR gas system, which is a bastard length that was NEVER intended to be employed by Stoner. Ever.

It's incumbent upon YOU to explain why this bastard design is superior to the midlength, which is closer in design proportions to the rifle gas system than the CAR gas system.

You can explain to me why your bastard child CAR gas system should be accepted.

It's awfully rash to treat the middy gas system as a red-headed stepchild when it is an industry proven design.