Is a laser helpful?

[Grizzly16]

There are a lot of good dry fire and live fire drills on this site. If you have money for a decent laser you have money for a few boxes of ammo. You can work on your goupings with out going to a class.

On topic of the laser. They can be a great tool on top of a basic set of fundementals they are not a tool to fix your problems.

[JSantoro]

They deviate from the fundamentals

Utterly false. Lasers are inanimate objects that can neither make decisions nor take actions. SHOOTERS do that. They no more deviate fom the fundamentals than putting an Apex part into a pistol does so. The fundamentals remain the same; how the shooter chooses to approach them is where things get upgefuched.

Lasers are a "force multiplier," to use a buzzphrase...

...provided that the shooter understands all of the limitations of any add-on, and remembers to use the laser to enhance performance regarding things he already knows how to do instead of depend upon it to allow him to do things he otherwise wouldn't be able to do.

Instances in which a laser would be a smart choice in terms of allowing a shooter to do something outside of his normal scope, particularly on a handgun, would be a shooter that isn't physically capable of pointing a gun in the way a healthy/whole person can.

From a technical, standpoint, don't expect to get much use out of them in full daylight. Most of them are 5mW systems, and red. That gets attenuated fairly rapidly; dot is hard to pick up in general, and can effectively disappear at 20yd. There are greens available, which works better in daylight (that wavelength, 532nm, sits right in the middle of our visible range, red is near the top of it). The green ones stick out like a turd in a punch bowl under virtually any lighting condition, and CTC makes them.

CTC is the most "mature" type, the most reliable, I think has the best/ most intuitive switchology, more often than not does not require any holster modifications or type-specific holster. Other types can't say the same as that last one. CTC CAN alter how one grips the gun, maybe/maybe-not in a desirable way, whereas other brands (rail-mounted, TG-mounted) may not. Judgement call -- the "borrow some" aspect rears up, again....

The comments regarding zero-shift and making the mistake of tracking the laser dot between shots (instead of treating it like a RDS, maintaining target-focus, and floating the dot to the target from the periphery...) are valid...to a point. The latter is a training thing; if you can use an Aimpoint and not follow the dot, you can do it with a pistol-mounted laser.

[Arctic1]

Personally I find lasers to be a good tool for dry firing, with a buddy who observes what the laser does. I will present the gun as normal, acquire a proper sight picture, front-sight focus and press the trigger.

I don't really understand the point about the laser detracting from the fundamentals, ie sight picture and such. The laser is an aiming tool, so if I am using a laser when I shoot, that is my sight picture. I am not using the sights and the laser. And shooting with a laser isn't going to suddenly affect how you shoot without a laser. Two different techniques, and it is possible to practice both.

Agreed that a laser cannot compensate for fundamentals that are not present.

[Warp]

What I was getting at is that focusing on the target deviates from focusing on the front site.

[Magic_Salad0892]

The latter is a training thing; if you can use an Aimpoint and not follow the dot, you can do it with a pistol-mounted laser.

I believe you're right, but it is an issue I could never get over. In a few thousand rounds.

Agreed with your other points as well.

[Arctic1]

What I was getting at is that focusing on the target deviates from focusing on the front site.

Is that an issue when using the laser as the primary sight? When I shoot utilizing a PEQ mounted on my rifle with NODs mounted on the helmet I can easily revert back to using my red dot, in daylight.....

[LHQuattro]

Its just a matter of learning to shift focus quickly

My fastest draws are when I can force myself to maintain focus on the spot I want my sights to appear...and what do you know, my sights automatically appear there too. My focues shifts quickly, its not that hard. It should be practiced, but its not that hard. I've had a laser shut off in me in recoil once while shooting an IDPA classifier (for fun)...didn't slow my overall time. Just drove on with the sights.

I use a laser, but probably not as much as I should. I find it a great tool for training new shooters (being able to see and diagnose the effects of poor trigger control), and a game changer when trying to shoot in low light, especially on moving targets, quick target transitions, or shooting on the move.

I probably shoot over 98% of my rounds without laser, and the same goes for dry fire. I should probably use it more. But every time I do it in low light...results amaze me. My times shooting Stage 1, string 3 on the classifier (2 ea headshots on T1-T3 at 7 yds) are consistently fastest using a laser, usually I go from approx 4.5 sec with sights to 4 sec with laser.

With good indoor light, I'm faster with my sights unless there's multiple transitions.

They can be a usefull tool, if used properly and not as a crutch.

[JSantoro]

an issue I could never get over. In a few thousand rounds.

I getcha. One such reason for that, though not the only, can be not quite getting the knack of not tracking the laser dot as it jitterbugs within what is actually the same wobble zone they have with irons, but with something more likely to draw the eye than a front blade.

Can get worse with a device that uses a strobing laser....though even that's not insurmountable.

[Magic_Salad0892]

I getcha. One such reason for that, though not the only, can be not quite getting the knack of not tracking the laser dot as it jitterbugs within what is actually the same wobble zone they have with irons, but with something more likely to draw the eye than a front blade.

Can get worse with a device that uses a strobing laser....though even that's not insurmountable.

That's actually the exact reason I had a hard time with it, I think.

I'd draw, my eye would catch the front sight blade, then I'd focous on my target, and laser, and my eye would follow the laser during recoil, and I'd lose it, and it'd slow down my splits, and make me less accurate.

Also, I didn't like the strobing laser. I tried one of the LaserMax guide rods for a Gen3 17 I had, and hated it. (It also kept getting carbon, and shit on the lens and made the laser really blurry, and it lost zero. BTW: There's absolutely no way to manually adjust zero on the guide rod laser. It's zeroed from factory. I guess. Seeing as how every Glock has a different POI I find that hard.

I sent it back, and they fixed it. But I sold it shortly after, with disclaimer as to why I let it go.

Now I use green glow in the dark paint on my front sight (10-8), and it dramatically helps me in low light.

[Ironman8]

if you can use an Aimpoint and not follow the dot, you can do it with a pistol-mounted laser.

I getcha. One such reason for that, though not the only, can be not quite getting the knack of not tracking the laser dot as it jitterbugs within what is actually the same wobble zone they have with irons, but with something more likely to draw the eye than a front blade.

Can get worse with a device that uses a strobing laser....though even that's not insurmountable.

I agree with what you say in theory, but you have to remember that a RDS equipped rifle will be a MUCH more stable platform than a laser equipped handgun (thanks to the 3 points of contact, spread out over a greater area Vs. 1 point of contact in one spot). The extra stability will decrease the "jitterbugs" thus allowing for faster and more controlled sighting/sight allignment as well as getting back on target after breaking a shot.

Also, what I touched on in my first post is that a laser seems to make me "oversight" the weapon, trying to line up the laser on "the perfect" spot on the target for that "perfect" shot. You're exactly right about laser and irons having the same wobble zone, but (without getting too Pincus on you) the brain will see the laser as a precise point that needs to be aligned with a precise spot before you feel ok with breaking the shot.

I'm sure training can help, but I think lasers just slow me down. Since I have great eyesight, grip strength, ect, it's really not necessary FOR ME. Someone who can't get a good sight picture due to a physical ailment may actually "need" the laser.