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Senior Member
I did the same thing. I used to have the VFG as close to the magwell as possible. But once I attached a can, I realized that what Larry Vickers had said made sense. So I moved it as far forward as I dare.Originally Posted by Justin Walker
I too keep my thumb up against the rail covers when shooting. YMMV.
We must not believe the Evil One when he tells us that there is nothing we can do in the face of violence, injustice and sin. - Pope Francis I
Banned
This is an easily resolved issue for me. It's easily resolved because I follow a general philosophy- if it does not make me faster, more accurate, or it's not mission essential, it's just clutter and will slow me down. A VFG will slow you down. If you need it, fine. If not, don't put it on your gun.
Moderator
Posted below are a few posts that I wrote on this forum, and instead of re-writting it, I just copied and pasted.
Just my experiences:
VERTICAL FOREGRIPS:
I copied the following question and my reply from another post in reference to vertical foregrips:
Originally posted by In2Deep:
Jeff,
do you find any mechanical advantage in running your vfg further out, or do you have monkey arms?
My reply:
No monkey arms here, I'm only 5'06".
Running the vertical foregrip all the way forward on a carbine length rail system is not anything new and it's not anything I thought up myself.
Guys much higher speed than me have been suggesting that I move my vertical foregrip all the way forward since 2003 or 2004. I believe there was also a thread about this same subject in the CQB room.
I had tried moving the vertical foregrip all the way forward several times in the past and it just never "felt right" or was causing me some pain and discomfort due to an injured left shoulder.
In late May of last year, I tried moving the vertical foregrip all the way forward and everything finally "clicked". After several years and several attempts I finally figured out why there were so many advantages to having the vertical foregrip all the way forward.
Think of how things balance and piviot points and maybe the following will make some sense
I have found that the magwell hold or having the vertical foregrip toward the delta ring places the center of gravity too far to the rear. Not a big issue when shooting in a CQB enviornment, but when engaging targets at further distances I have found this technique doesn't work well for me, and it's hard to keep the gun steady.
Kind of hard to explain this via a written message but here goes:
Think of your carbine like as if it were an old 1800's musket, you know the really long muskets, like the one that SneakySFDude carried in Basic. The stock is in your shoulder, and thus is supported at one end.
If you wanted the best control over the musket when moving it up and down and left to right where would you want to put your support hand? Would you want your support hand in close (near your firing hand), in the middle (dead center) of the musket, or as close as you could get it to the muzzle?
Obviously you would want to get the second point of support as close to the muzzle as possible.
Here is an exercise to try to illistrate the point I'm trying to make. Pick several targets out in your area, and stagger the distance both from left to right and front to back (ie. target #1 - 50 yards, target #2 - 350 yards, target number #3 175 yards, target #4 25 yards, etc).
Now take the longest rifle you have avalible to you (it can be a hunting rifle, AR15A2, M1 Garand, etc....the longer the rifle the better) and put your support hand as close as you can to the firing hand and transition from targets 1 - 4 as fast as you can. Do this a couple times. Now move the support hand the middle of the gun (ie. as close to center as possible) and transition from targets 1-4 as fast as you can. Do this a couple times. Now, move the support hand as far out on the forend as possible and transition from targets 1-4 as fast as you can. Do this a couple times.
I'm sure you will find that the further you get the hand out on the fore end the easier it is to control the gun, the quicker your transitions from one target to another, and when the support hand is in close you tend to "over shoot" your target but when it's further out, you can stop on a dime.
Moving the hand or vertical foregrip as close as you can get it to the unsupported end of the gun (ie. the muzzle) provides the best level of support and also helps you drive and control the gun much better.
With the vertical foregrip I'm constantly pushing rearward on the vertical foregrip, thus providing constant rearward pressure into my shoulder.
While at first having the vertical foregrip all the way forward feels ackward, I find that my support shoulder and arm doesn't fatigue as quickly and I can hold the gun up on target for longer periods of time.
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I have found that the magwell hold or having the vertical foregrip toward the delta ring places the center of gravity too far to the rear.
I have moved all of my vertical foregrips all the way to the front of the rail (closest to the front sight tower).
Kind of hard to explain this via a written message but here goes:
Think of your carbine like a board that is supported at one end. If you wanted the best control over the board when moving it up and down and left to right where would you want to put the support? Would you want it close to the end that is already supported, in the middle, or as close as you can get it to the unsupported end?
Obviously you would want to get the second point of support as close to the end of the board that is not being supported as possible.
Moving the hand or vertical foregrip as close as you can get it to the unsupported end of the gun (ie. the muzzle) provides the best level of support and also helps you drive and control the gun much better.
With the vertical foregrip I'm constantly pushing rearward on the vertical foregrip, thus providing constant rearward pressure into my shoulder.
When I'm NOT using a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand around the handguard (like you would wrap your hand around any cylinder shaped object), with my index finger pointing in the same direction as the muzzle (resting on the 9 o'clock rail).
With my hand in this position I can provide constant rearward pressure into my shoulder. Having my hand in this position provides much more control and I can drive the gun much better and stop on a target without overshooting it and having to come back to it. I have noticed that when I have my hand closer to the delta ring that I can't stop the gun as quickly when transitioning from one target to another at medium to long distances and often over shoot or go past the target and have to come back to it.
Here is a visual of how I hold the gun without a vertical foregrip and can provide constant rearward pressure and have much better control:
Larger version of above photo.
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On another board, someone asked me why I don't use a vertical foregrip on my mid-lengths (w/ ACOGs) any more:
Did you dump your Vertical Fore Grip for the shoot (match) or altogether now Jeff?
Xxxxx,
After much trial and error, I have come to the following conclusion: -Guns that I do a lot of CQB work with I prefer the vertical foregrip. The vertical foregrip helps me "drive" the gun on closer targets, is more ergonomical for accessing a weapon mounted light, gives more power on muzzle strikes and weapon retention, etc.
On guns that I do a lot of *long range shooting* with, I prefer NO vertical foregrip, because I can steady the gun much better on longer shots without the vertical foregrip. The lack of a vertical foregrip also helps me drive and stop the gun better when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances, and has an advantage on barricades, etc. The rifle match has 75%+ of the targets placed from 100 yards - 425 yards.
Something that I noticed when using a vertical foregrip and long range targets....when I would transition from one target to another, I would always pass the target I was transitioning to and have to come back to it (ie. I would "over shoot" or by pass the target).
I don't know why, but on close targets I can drive the gun and stop on a dime at close distances....but at long range targets, I would always pass the target and have to come back to it.
Without a vertical foregrip, I can stop on a dime when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances. Without a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand round the forend and point my index finger in the same direction as the muzzle (index finger is pointing forward along the 9 o'clock rail) Example: http://demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRM-...0_5707_img.jpg
On my guns that have ACOG's, Leupold MR/T 1.5-5x M2's, (guns set up for medium to long range shooting) I have removed the vertical foregrips and run just the LaRue handguard and Tango Down pannels.
On my guns with Aimpoints / Short Dots (work guns or guns set up for close to medium range shooting), I still run the vertical foregrips.
Distance = time. Time affords you the ability to get into more stable positions (ie. sitting, prone, braced kneeling, the use of barricades, etc, etc.) In these position a vertical foregrip has no advantage, and can often get in the way. When most of your shots are closer and you are in the standing position or on the move, this is the area where the vertical foregrip shines. I guess it's all about selecting the right tool for the job. Just my opinion based on my personal experiences, as with all things, your milage may vary. []
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Semper Fi,
Jeff
Member
Something I don't see mentioned very often is the use of a stubby VFG. Could this be used as a compromise? I've been thinking that it might be beneficial. I thought I saw a post where Grant mentioned that he took LAV's advice and stopped using the VFG (forgive me if I'm mis-stating this). That got me thinking about my uses. I can see the advantage of not having the additional object hanging from the weapon, and the possible extra control gained from be able wrapping the hand around the handguad. However, it is nice to give yourself, just enough extra real estate to hold on to, such as the VFG. I was thinking with the stubby, it would be used more as a hand stop. I've never used a stubby, and don't have extensive experience with a VFG, so I was just seeing if anyone had any inputs on the use of stubby or would like to add on to use of the weapon without the VFG.
Industry Professional
I will freely admit, I still...sometimes... think about the merits of the VFG. The one think I never questioned, however, was the placement of my support hand. When I was first issued a M4, I started shooting with my support thumb pretty much makeing contact with the side sling swivel.(Ie, as far as it went on a 7 inch rail) This was in the late 90's. It was easier to "move the gun" from side to side, and I could pull it into my shoulder so if felt much less like I was "holding it up." (not alway fun for a guy that was 5'6" and 150 ish lbs)
When I met Lav about 2.5 years ago, and he told us to grab the gun as far out on the rail as possible,(within reason) I felt pretty good about my self. I'm just sorry it took so long for someone to explain to me why I had been doing it all along. For me, before then, I'd just tell guys that it was the only way I could support the weight durring "up drills" and keep the muzzle down while fireing.
After Larry's class, I marked my self as "accidently cutting edge".
I was not blessed with the "shooting" gene, but like all other debates, for every reson for, their is a reason agianst. Guys who like the VFG use the EXACT same arguements as the guys who don't use them as to why.
For me and me alone, I'd rather not switch back and forth between them. Some of you may have that much skill. I do not, however.
Member
That's exactly the question I was looking to find an answer for. I just think we may have come to opposite answers.
If there are good techniques to use a VFG as a shooting support then, "yes" it does aid in accuracy.
If it helps someone use a light more naturally and with less risk of a light AD then, "yes" it becomes mission essential.
If it allows you to hold onto your rifle "at the ready" for longer periods of time, with less strain and fatigue - if that's the kind of mission you may have - then I would say, "yes" it can make you faster because you would be less fatigued if/when you had to present and fire.
This is what I love about discussing tactics/techniques. Two (or more) intelligent and experienced people can ask the same question, see the same facts, make opposite conclusions, and both be right. I wish algebra class had been this way.
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