Carbine class: If you could pick only one......

[rob_s]

I'll put in a vote for Randy Cain. I've taken several classes from him (a couple of handgun, carbine, AK), as well as carbine from Pat Rogers and handgun from Bill Jeans. I have an Awerbuck carbine coming up in a couple of months but haven't trained with him before.

I took Pat's class, my first carbine class, in December of '06. It was a good class, and I learned a lot. Then I took Randy's carbine class in early '07, and I realized how much I missed of what Pat was trying to teach. I took Pat's class again in December of '07 and having the foundation that Randy laid made me appreciate Pat's class so much more this time around.

Randy is a fantastic diagnostic instructor. You'll have a lower round count in one of his classes, but you will spend 3 days focusing on the fundamentals of sight picture, trigger control, and how to get good hits as well as basic weapon manipulation (mag changes, etc.). You will also leave with the best confirmed 200 yard zero (facility providing) that you could possibly ever have. Some people find this to be a waste of time as it's not as "exciting" as some of the high round classes, but every time you go to prone, find natural point of aim, and shoot a 5 shot group you're working on all the basics. Those basics carry over to everything else you'll ever do with that carbine.

It's not that Pat's class is better or worse than Randy's, it's just different. I think that Randy's class is the foundation for everything you'll ever do with a carbine.

I have not trained with Larry (although I hope to later this year) so I can't comment on his teaching or classes. I do think that instructors with an LE background, in general, are better for first-time students and that instructors from the military side of things are better for those that already have some other training. YMMV

[crossgun]

I have trained on the carbine with Pat Rogers, Dave Harrington, Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn. All of them are excellent instructors. The advantage to taking multiple classes and training with all of these guys is your skill set becomes well rounded. IMO Larry can’t teach you how to load a mag or insert it different than Dave, Ken or Pat. What you get from each of these guys is a mind set that well out ways the basics of the mechanics of running the weapon and some advanced skills.

Based on your described need. I would favor Pat Rogers of EAG Tactical. His approach is very organized and class room like. Tons of information on the platform and execution. Never slow or off track. EAG is an intro to fighting with the carbine. It’s not about shooting polka dot size groups. Pats good to go.

"Hydrate, urinate and jam mags"!

[petey1]

Thanks everyone.....this is extremely helpful. As many of you suggested, I think I will end up taking more than one eventually.

[Jay Cunningham]

Don't forget to review this stickied thread:

Training Resources.

[Heavy Metal]

Having trained with both, I would recommend Larry for your intro class and Pat for your 2nd.

[Jay Cunningham]

Having trained with both, I would recommend Larry for your intro class and Pat for your 2nd.

Could you elaborate as to your reasoning?

[Heavy Metal]

Mabey it is simply that I relate better to Larry, he is a die-hard metal head and we are of the same generation. And he is a gun guy. First and last, Larry is a gun guy. To see the gleam in his eye when he speaks with pride of Vicker's Tactical's 1st Dealer Sample rebuild of a 1967 Izvesk AKM and then lets the class shoot it or when he tells you all the nitty-gritty about the STG-44......and then lets the class shoot it! (you were thare for that one!) Dude! That is getting pretty damn close to Santa Claus in my book!

I just think Larry's style and demenor is better suited to a beginner. I think you will take away more from Pat's class if you take Larry's first. I did the reverse and wished I had done it in the other order. Not ment to be a slight on Pat, he is certainly a very worthy instructor and I strongly recommend everyone catch his monthly SWAT write-up's.

Mabey is is something in his SF background where training up peseant gurrellas was part of his job description. I just think if you are going to be de-goobered, Larry is the one to do it.


....and I like the walk-back drills!

[psenior]

For what you are looking for, I would recommend Randy Cain. Before training with him last year, I wasn't at all familiar with running the AR and it showed. I have to agree with everything Rob has said above. He and I were in the same class earlier last year and I think I ended up being the most improved shooter overall.

In the future, I would like to take a class from either Larry Vickers or Pat Rogers. I have only heard good things about them and their courses appear to be geared more towards those who already have a good foundation in the fundamentals of the carbine.

[SHIVAN]

Pat Rogers or Larry Vickers for sure.

If you can't pick, draw the name from a hat and go with it.

[stony275]

My first carbine course was Pat Rogers. Then I took LAV's pistol and carbine course. I have also taken Paul Howe's Advanced Tactical Rifle Course.

All are great instructors, but I've returned to Larry for follow on training and will continue to do so.