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Thread: E-Lander magazines

  1. #351
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    What does an out of spec DPMS lower have to do with the price of tea in China?
    Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Owner of MI-TAC, LLC .

    @MichiganTactical

  2. #352
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    Edit.
    Last edited by Belloc; 02-13-13 at 08:38.
    "Do you need to be told that even such modest attainments as you boast of in the way of polite society will hardly survive the Faith to which they owe their significance?"
    T.S. Eliot, Choruses from the Rock

  3. #353
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    Yeah, in a thread about E-lander mags....whatever could the problem with THAT be...?

    The notes on the bloody video identify that the magwell used is tight, i.e., out-of-spec.

    NOT RELEVANT because:
    1) It'a an out-of-spec magwell. Who gives a rat's patoot about mags not dropping free from that? That's not something that can be laid at the feet of the magazine. Not dropping free from an in-spec magwell...? Different story.

    2) This is a thread about MidEast company that's re-branding Tavor mags to sell to thirsty-in-the-desert customers. We have a thread about the Magpul M3 magazines, so maybe put this as an equally-pointless-because-of-the-magwell-thing in the Magpul M3 magazine thread....?

    That's not actually a suggestion...once again, per the magwell being out-of-spec, which you're not getting, in spite of the understandably misleading disclaimer in English immediately under the video's window....

    Had you committed a violation, you'd have been hit up for a violation. Since you did not, the post was simply deleted.

    You're a 2007 join. You have ZERO excuse for whining about it here, instead of taking it to PM with the mod that conducted the action.

    You're as bas as the Mako reps trying to push the idea that springs breaking in is a valid thing in regard to ANY magazine, and that there's such a thing as a "civilian magwell." It's utter BS. If you can't push good gouge, please stop pushing ANY gouge, period.
    Contractor scum, PM Infantry Weapons

  4. #354
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    Edit.
    Last edited by Belloc; 05-11-13 at 18:14. Reason: Failure to follow simple instructions.
    "Do you need to be told that even such modest attainments as you boast of in the way of polite society will hardly survive the Faith to which they owe their significance?"
    T.S. Eliot, Choruses from the Rock

  5. #355
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    I have had an account but have been blocked from posting in this thread for some reason, so I have been unable to answer any of your concerns until now - I made a new account and it was only just now activated.

    I will try to provide some information without responding to every post individually.

  6. #356
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    About the E-Lander magazines

    E-Lander magazines are not a new product made by a new company. The company has been manufacturing since the early days of the modern nation of Israel.

    E-Lander magazines have been extensively tested in Israel, and are in common use there. In fact, Tavor rifles in Israel ship from the factory with E-Lander magazines. They are also serving in other countries.

    The magazines are built exactly to MIL-STD specs based on Colt's drawings. They are tested with the measuring tools built by Colt, and were extensively tested in military contract Colt rifles prior to entering service in Israel. The magazines undergo continual testing to ensure that they remain within spec. They are measured, of course, and also live fire tested with Colt, Gilboa, and Tavor rifles.

    They also were professionally tested by independent testers, and by the IDF before entering service, and were of course, tested by companies to which they are provided as OEM mags to accompany their rifles.

    There is one thing that everyone who has actually measured the magazines can agree on - these magazines were dead on the ideal dimensions per MIL-SPEC requirements, and are extremely consistent from magazine to magazine.

    These magazines were not built with the US civilian market in mind - they were built exactly to MIL-SPEC dimensions as required by E-Lander's military customers, and tested in actual gauged, MIL-SPEC rifles. In Israel, that is basically all there is.

    The US Market
    A little over two years ago, E-Lander approached us about representing them in the US market. At that time, we took samples and began testing them. About a year ago, we received more samples and continued testing. I have had other brands of magazines that began to display issues after some use, and wanted to be sure we put some time into using them.
    I used the E-Lander magazines almost exclusively for almost two years. We ran them in our courses, and we sent them out to writers and others to test. I took them to machine gun shoots and we ran them both semi and full auto in a number of different weapons. I personally tested them in somewhere around 30 different rifles. Others within the company tested them as well.

    At this point, we found no rifle that had any issues with seating, and had no mag-related malfunctions using 5.56 brass or steel case ammo from various manufacturers. We had purposely tested with civilian market rifles and had no indications that there would be any issues with seating.

    It was not until we had shipped tens of thousands of magazines out that we began to get some complaints about difficult seating. Most complaints that we received could easily be identified as training issues, once we spoke with the users, but we soon noticed that some of the complaints about hard seating seemed to be legitimate. We asked people to return magazines for testing, and we asked people to report issues to see if we could find any particular trends. When we checked the magazines, we found that they were in spec, and actually built to the ideal spec in every dimension. We also saw again that they were very consistent. We then began working with manufacturers and other people in the industry who were very experienced in the US market. We also measured US-made magazines.

    What we found was that we had a magazine that was built for military contract rifles, which are all gauged and proven to be built to spec before they can be shipped. This was the purpose for which the magazines were designed.

    What we did not have was a magazine that was not necessarily ideal for the US civilian market, with a lot of variation between rifles. We did not identify this fact early, because when you consider that we estimate somewhere around 1% of civilian rifles had a seating issue with these mags, it is not surprising that we did not run into a rifle that had any issues during testing.

  7. #357
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    Edit.
    Last edited by Belloc; 05-11-13 at 18:14.
    "Do you need to be told that even such modest attainments as you boast of in the way of polite society will hardly survive the Faith to which they owe their significance?"
    T.S. Eliot, Choruses from the Rock

  8. #358
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    The Seating Issue

    There are two things at play here, and many people, because a few people have been very vocal about legitimate seating issues, assume they have a seating issue when they do not.

    If the magazine seat fine empty with the bolt closed, but seats harder fully loaded on a closed bolt, there is no issue. The springs are very strong and need a slight break-in. If you leave the mag loaded for a week and run some rounds through it, you will find that it will seat much easier.

    If the magazine will not seat easily empty on a closed or open bolt, then there is a dimensional issue between the rifle and these mags. This does not mean that the rifle is a bad rifle - a rifle built for the civilian market does not necessarily need to be a MIL-SPEC rifle, nor does in necessarily have to adhere to all MIL-SPEC dimensions, as long as it is a good quality rifle and as long as it functions reliably. Besides, it only takes a very small deviation to cause an issue with magazine function in the area that is causing the problem. It also does not mean that there is a problem with the magazines, but what it does mean is that the magazines are not perfect for that particular market.

    Once we knew that the specs are more varied on civilian rifles in the US, we had to make a decision - we could say, "Our mags work in 99% of rifles, and we know they are in spec, so tough luck if they don't work with yours." After all, we are selling these things so fast, we don't need to make them work in everyone's rifles, and we all know of mag companies who sell lots of marginally-functional magazines and make a ton of money doing it.
    However, we determined that we could make a change to one dimension, keep the magazines still within spec, though that one dimension would no longer be right on the ideal dimension, and the magazines would work in pretty much all rifles, MIL-SPEC or otherwise, unless the rifle was way out of spec.

    E-lander immediately shut down production, made a change to the tooling, and began testing a revised mag for the US market. The initial testing is complete and the revision 3 magazines are in full production now, with the first shipment leaving Israel yesterday.

    In the mean time, we have slowed order fulfillment while we waited for the new mags, as once they arrive, all orders sent out will be Rev3 mags.

  9. #359
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    TheMakoGroup, thanks for the detailed explanation. The fact that you're willing to post here speaks volumes. I'm looking forward to receiving my magazines.

  10. #360
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    Other issues

    Drop free issues - people reporting drop-free issues are generally confused about what the term means - they think it means the mag release is hard to push. This is causing others to be confused.
    What it really means is that the magazine does not drop out of the mag well under its own weight after the magazine is released, but has to be pulled out.
    I can probably count on one hand the number of people who have reported a legitimate drop-free issue with E-Lander mags. This is not something we will need to address, since it seems consistent with the percentages of people who experience drop-free issues with other brands of magazines.
    However, aluminum mags that fit tight in a particular mag-well and do not drop free will often break in quickly, while steel magazines will hold their shape a bit better. If you find this to be the case with any metal magazine, you can adjust the mag a bit, since it is much better than adjusting the rifle. Fulton Armory has instructions for doing this in their FAQ.

    Defective mags
    When anything is manufactured in these numbers, there will be some defects that make it past QC. We have had 3 returned for defects and I have seen photos of two more with factory defects. If you get a magazine that has a factory defect, please contact me. QC is very high on these, but may will be one that slips through from time to time.

    Reports of problems that can't be verified
    We have seen people posting about various problems, claiming things like an order of 25 magazines that won't accept more than 5 or 6 rounds, and things like that, often posting about trying mags that belonged to a friend or that they bought somewhere else, yet when questioned, it turns out they never had tried the mags or they won't give us any answer. Other people will post reviews, and when we try to replace or refund their magazines or otherwise make it right, we get nasty emails (often concerning the fact that we are competing with their favorite magazine manufacturer) and they just claim that we never responded or contacted them.
    Others claim they bought one somewhere else, or tried a friends, etc. and leverage to cancel their order. We will cancel any order if it is requested, we have always done so; there is no need to try to justify it.
    At this point, if I do not have an order number that I can look up, or a name, I have to assume that the info is unreliable, since we have seen so many crazy claims from those who have not actually used the magazines.

    Rounds that move in the magazine
    If you load a double stack magazine, shake it, and a round or two slides forward and back in the mag, this is normal. It happens with GI mags, Lancer mags, Pmags, E-Lander mags, Glock mags, even with internal bolt-action rifle mags. It is a non-issue.

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