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Thread: Why DHS has been hoarding ammo. The answer. I think.

  1. #1
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    Wink Why DHS has been hoarding ammo. The answer. I think.

    So, I spoke to a colleague who follows DoD and related stuff for a living.

    He seems to think that DHS has been making huge ammo orders ... to get it all in before sequestration takes effect tomorrow (March 1).

    In hindsight, that makes a lot of sense, and no tin-foil involved.

    Rule of government budgeting: If you ain't spending your budget, you are being inefficient. You lose it next year if you don't use it now.
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    I think you could be onto to something. Agencies often purchase ammunition for more than one year, sometimes four or five.

    How many agencies fall under DHS? How many employees are required to train and qualify with a firearm each year and how many rounds do they expend? I know a Federal Marshall who was complaining that his people were reduced to 1,000 rounds per year for training. 1,000 rounds per year multiplied by the number of sworn in his agency is a lot of ammunition and that's just one Federal agency.
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    It was that way at the end of the fiscal year in the Marine Corps. I was an XO for an artillery battery and always felt the system bred waste and misuse.

    Bn CO: "We have 30 days until the end of the fiscal year and $XXXXX left. If we don't spend this then we lose it and they won't give us as much next year. So find out anything the howitzers need, find out what's wrong with any of the trucks, order excess parts, and find out any other office supplies or anything else you might want."

    It always caused the most ridiculous ideas to waste money to be brought up. I was never in charge of a battalion or higher's budget so maybe I just don't get why it has to be that way but it seemed wasteful. And it seemed the system being that way was the reason for it.

    But to the point of hoarding ammo before the sequestration I completely understand holding on to as much of that as possible. Ammo is something that I would never look at obtaining large quantities of as waste.
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    Not to mention that the Coast Guard is part of the DHS.....

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    Yep. The old 'spend all your money before they close the books.' Has happened every year for decades across the govt. There is plenty of room in the budget cut. I would argue the Army budget could be cut in half and only improve readiness.

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    Makes sense. FUBAR bureaucracy. And don't think its limited to the Federal Govt either, apparently its why we have $1500 water fountains in our capital state house here in Ohio. No, no, those water fountains really do cost $1500............

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smash View Post
    It was that way at the end of the fiscal year in the Marine Corps. I was an XO for an artillery battery and always felt the system bred waste and misuse.

    Bn CO: "We have 30 days until the end of the fiscal year and $XXXXX left. If we don't spend this then we lose it and they won't give us as much next year. So find out anything the howitzers need, find out what's wrong with any of the trucks, order excess parts, and find out any other office supplies or anything else you might want."

    It always caused the most ridiculous ideas to waste money to be brought up. I was never in charge of a battalion or higher's budget so maybe I just don't get why it has to be that way but it seemed wasteful. And it seemed the system being that way was the reason for it.

    But to the point of hoarding ammo before the sequestration I completely understand holding on to as much of that as possible. Ammo is something that I would never look at obtaining large quantities of as waste.
    This is very true. I was an XO for an Army artillery battery but we were a separate battery with an independent budget. We had an annual budget and one of my additional duties was the budget officer. Basically, the goal was to spend every last cent of your budget. Let say you were efficient or simply didn't have the need to spend your entire budget then the next year your budget would be reduced to match your actually spending automatically. In addition, you would lose the money that you didn't spend the last fiscal year. Under this system, you are actually punished for trying to save the taxpayer money.

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    I am well aware of the "spend it or lose it" mindset of bureaucratic agencies, and that idea does nothing to loosen my tinfoil.

    How many rounds of amunition? How many MRAPs?

    Yet they can't afford to hold criminals in jail.
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    We imprison more people than any other nation on earth and it costs us a lot financially, currahee.
    Last edited by Littlelebowski; 02-28-13 at 13:16.

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    While that is true, we purchased our ammo 5 years in advance. So we were buying 5 years of ammunition at a time. It would be uncommon to make more than one purchase in a fiscal year. I may be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    Not to mention that the Coast Guard is part of the DHS.....





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    Are prisons under the DHS budget?
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    Why DHS has been hoarding ammo. The answer. I think.

    You mean to tell me the DHS isn't hoarding ammo to institute martial law and kill off anyone who gets in the way of "the administration's" wishes?

    Like I said in the carriers thread...

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    Bottom line, there is no rational reason why DHS needs close to 2 billion high end defensive rounds on hand. During the height of the Iraq War ammo consuption averaged 5-6 million rounds per month. Basically the DHS has enough ammo on hand for over 25 years of combat operations in Iraq.

    I do understand the budgeting aspect but I do think something else is up.
    Last edited by crusader377; 02-28-13 at 13:36.

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    Where are you guys reading that these purchase orders are to be filled in full? All the info I've seen is that they are contract orders UP TO xxx amount meaning when call and want 30 million rounds production gets diverted to fill their request as it takes priority. In the end the artificial demand just keeps supply dried up .

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    1) they're IDIQ contracts and, 2) DHS and agencies under their umberella never have been and still are not the only folks that're gonna be using that ammo...

    ....there's a lot of wasted tinfoil being cinched down when there's plenty of REAL scariness to be worried about. Lotsa folks wasting energy hand-wringing over this, for no better reason than it being easier to hand-wring than it is to read the contracts....

    Point of order: How, precisely, does one hoard stuff that hasn't been made, much less delivered, yet...?
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    Wink

    Having trained alongside a few DHS guys (e.g., BORTAC, etc) ...

    I notice they train with their issued duty ammo.

    Makes me cringe.
    Doing my part to keep malls safe

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    Quote Originally Posted by 30 cal slut View Post
    Having trained alongside a few DHS guys (e.g., BORTAC, etc) ...

    I notice they train with their issued duty ammo.

    Makes me cringe.
    I bet you don't mind picking up the brass

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman8 View Post
    I bet you don't mind picking up the brass
    Shhhh!
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    Also keep in mind that it's been over 1,400 days since a real and actual federal budget has been passed. Some of the bureaucratic gymnastics necesary to keep the bus rolling are quite astonishing, to say the least.

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    Ive a question to ask, BEFORE I relay what was told to me today by a friend of mine who goes to trade shows to buy ammo for my local
    favorite gunshop.
    My question is this..conspiracy or 5 year purchase or whatever, is or is not this going to affect both availability and price, when the ammo makers start fullfilling those gub-ment contracts?
    Tossing all the tin foil b.s. aside for a moment, Im not understanding the 5 year purchase of ammo. If youve got money left over for the year, year after year, do you buy 5 years ahead every year? Or once every 5 years?
    Whats LEGAL...aint always RIGHT. And whats RIGHT...aint always LEGAL. See pic.

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