"9mm doesn't perform against heavy winter clothing..."

**DocGKR** · 04-29-13, 10:28

There are numerous sources available for assessing ammunition terminal performance other than internet forums of dubious veracity.

As noted, well engineered, quality built, robust expanding modern 9 mm JHP works fine through heavy clothing.

**RalphK.** · 04-29-13, 11:01

No offense to any range masters here but a few I've been thru are, let's be nice and I'll say: narrow minded and ignorant. Yes they're great shots and can read the course out loud and blow the whistle well...other than that...most don't know jack shit.

Their biases and misinformation is what influences the chiefs...well my guy is the range master, he must know his shit...we'll go w/ his choice of gun/ammo.

**T2C** · 04-29-13, 11:07

Originally Posted by RalphK.

No offense to any range masters here but a few I've been thru are, let's be nice and I'll say: narrow minded and ignorant. Yes they're great shots and can read the course out loud and blow the whistle well...other than that...most don't know jack shit.

Their biases and misinformation is what influences the chiefs...well my guy is the range master, he must know his shit...we'll go w/ his choice of gun/ammo.

No offense taken. I have assisted other agencies in dealing with issues that were perpetuated by someone who ran the firing range because they had more seniority than everyone else who was interested in the position. Two agencies were carrying FMJ ammunition, because their chief range officer thought it was a better duty round. When the agency chiefs were provided with unbiased data, they purchased ammunition more suitable for duty use.

**Swatdude1** · 04-29-13, 11:32

147 gr HST in 9mm has no equal in my opinion. Here is some data for your rangemaster...

le.atk.com/downloads/catalogs/HSTInsertPoster.pdf

**S. Galbraith** · 04-29-13, 11:41

Originally Posted by tpd223

One, we issue the 124gr +P Gold Dot here, and even through some seriously heavy clothing we have never had a bullet fail to expand.

Second, the .30 carbine thing is a myth. At ranges that you can actually hit people with a carbine that bullet is going though heavy clothing, the man wearing it, and out the other side.

My dad fought in Korea and noted that all of the stories he heard about how bad the carbine was were, in his humble opinion, mostly related to guys missing. Since between Korea and Vietnam he had shot a lot of people using a carbine I listened to his opinion.

As did my dad, and he qualified expert every time. Based on his combat experience in the mountains of Korea, he would rather have shouldered the extra weight of the Garand and have had observably better results on those routine 300 yard shots. He was issued a M2 for a while, and even at closer ranges he preferred to shoot it in bursts rather than peck away in semiauto.

**DocH** · 04-29-13, 11:44

OP,you have the right idea,but don't get your hopes up too much. Unfortunately,ignorance and misinformation will continue to persist in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. I watched it for 27 years....and I'm an optomist. But, good luck to you.

**WC 2-3** · 04-29-13, 13:43

Colorado Springs PD uses M&P 9mm with no complaints that I've heard from OIS

**EnSerioJose** · 04-29-13, 14:15

Originally Posted by Pilot1

You may want to look into Hornady's new Critical Duty 9MM ammo. The hollow point cavity is filled with polymer, and designed to penetrate heavy clothing, and other obstacles before it expands.

http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-Duty/
http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-DUTY-New

Beat me to it! This is what I've been carrying and its ran flawlessly at the range.