Training conundrum...?

[Blinking Dog]

So based on everyone's input I'm trying to get in to Paul Howe's tactical rifle class next month. So here's my new dilemma. I have read numerous times on this forum that I should have a proven carbine with a thousand or more rounds through it so I know it works BEFORE I go to class.

But, I want to go to class to learn good techniques BEFORE I develop bad habits. And if I shoot a thousand rounds or more before class then I'll likely have to un-learn my poor technique that I picked up trying to make sure my M&P15 works.

So do I go buy a bunch of ammo to burn through in the next few weeks before class to make sure my M&P15 is GTG, or assume (I know, I know) that it works fine since (knock on wood) no problems thus far, and get to class to learn good stuff THEN burn up lots of ammo after I learn a thing or three?

Thanks in advance

[markm]

Just take the class.

If your carrier key is staked, there's little chance of you having problems. I definitely wouldn't just go burning ammo to prove your weapon.

I've never taken a class where there wasn't at least one other student with an extra weapon that he'd gladly loan out to someone with a major problem.

Also... None of the carbean classes I've taken have been particularly hard on my rifle. I tend to gravitate towards instructors who make you think/decision make instead of Mag dump.

There are certain contractor courses that are what they are, and they teach high volume fire techniques that have a purpose.... but that's not the type of training I'm looking to get.... In fact, if a course description states that you'll burn thru thousands of rounds in a few days, I pass on it.

[VA_Dinger]

I would relax.

If you have shot 500-1000 rounds through your chosen carbine and had no issues you will most likely be fine. Just try to run the same ammo or at the very least quality factory ammo.

My 2 cents:
- Keep the weapon properly lubricated during the entire class
- Run factory ammo, or at the very least ammo you have tested throughly
- Use quality magazines; USGI, Magpul P-mags, or HK

While students do have weapon reliability issues from time to time, I have never seen them in the numbers you read about in certain firearms magazines or Internet forums. Maybe I've been lucky, but I highly doubt that. I think guys just want something to talk about and this gets guys attending their 1st classes all worked up.

Relax and enjoy an outstanding class from one of the best trainers in the business.

[Blake]

I wouldn't worry so much about dumping pointless rounds down range, just so you have a certain round count before class, but I would make sure it basically functions properly. I would run "several" magazines worth through it. Maybe some rapid fire to see how it will react. You don't have to have any skills other than safe gun handling to point it at a target and pull the trigger. If you have "no" habits thus far, dumping a couple of mags worth isn't going to create irreversible bad habits, especially if you are cognizant of the fact you DO NOT want to create those bad habits. One thing you should consider is zeroing the weapons iron and red dot sight (if applicable). Unless you just have absolutely have no flippin earthly clue how to zero. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence if you have already done this, but it seems you haven't fired too many rounds through one. If you haven't zeroed you should be able to get a "rough" zero by reading and searching here or elsewhere, and you can refine under the supervision of the instructor.

[ToddG]

If you've put at least a couple hundred rounds through the gun to be sure everything is functioning, you're good to go. If you haven't, just go to the range and fire the gun in a relaxed atmosphere. Don't try to be "tactical" or "fast." You won't develop bad habits in a couple hundred rounds that you wouldn't have to begin with. They'll have to be beaten (I mean trained ... really, "trained" is what I meant) out of you during the first day of class regardless.

Good luck on the class, train hard & stay safe!

[Blinking Dog]

I would relax.

I'm not as high strung as my post(s) make me sound.

If you have shot 500-1000 rounds through your chosen carbine and had no issues you will most likely be fine. Just try to run the same ammo or at the very least quality factory ammo.

That's the reason for my post, I haven't put 500-1000 rounds through it...only like 250. So far so good. But is there a magic number really? I mean, a new gun with a couple hundred rounds and no problems ought to be GTG, right? But if I had a gun with a couple thousand rounds through it, it might have a couple of parts that are getting worn or loose or something...? It is a bit of a paradox to me, this magic round count that is high enough to tell me everything is a-ok, yet not too high that I need to replace pins or springs.

My 2 cents:
- Keep the weapon properly lubricated during the entire class
- Run factory ammo, or at the very least ammo you have tested throughly
- Use quality magazines; USGI, Magpul P-mags, or HK

- I've got lots of lube, and I know how to use it!
- Still working on ammo, have a post in the ammo forum asking for input
- Using Magpul mags

[Sam]

Like VA and Todd said, +100.

If you just go to the range, hopefully you have access to a rifle range, and verify your zero, shoot a bunch of groups from the bench, shoot from 25, 50 and 100 yds, you'll be fine.

Nothing tactical, no high speed ninja required, not even super fast rapid fire needed. Just take your time and shoot some 10 shot slow fire groups from the bench. You don't even need to do it in one session. Shoot 100 rounds a week for two or three weeks.

[markm]

Good point on ZEROing.

[Sam]

But is there a magic number really? I mean, a new gun with a couple hundred rounds and no problems ought to be GTG, right?

It's hard to say, there's no quick and easy answer.

I'll share my own experience.

My first AR was an Olympic Arms (1990), I bought it because I didn't know any better and it was affordable (a clue). I had it for years, and probably had a couple thousand rounds through it. I never really noticed any problem.

Then one day around 2002(?), I spent an afternoon in a private practice session with S-Dave. We probably put 500 rounds in less than 4 hours. I found that my sling was lacking, magazines were junk and the rifle fell apart at the end of the training session. Pins broke, things got loose inside and the rifle shut down. The next day I went in search for a replacement gun. I had the Oly rifle fixed and sold it at a gunshow and made profit!

I found a Clinton era Bushmaster (definitely a step up from Oly) and found it was much sturdier except it was obnoxiously loud due to the "mini Y compensator". With maybe 500 rounds under its belt, it was used in a Ken Hackathorn class. It ran without a problem for a couple of years until I upgraded to a Rock River prior to another Hackathorn class.

Again with only 300 - 400 of breaking in rounds, it ran like a sewing machine in that class, another Super Dave class (1500 rounds), a Paul Howe gig and several NRA slow fire matches. The same lower and bolt carrier group went through a Vickers class with a different upper.

So maybe 300 - 500 rounds is the MINIMUM for you to tell if the gun is working properly.

[Blinking Dog]

If your carrier key is staked, there's little chance of you having problems.

Here's a pic of mine, what do you think? Correct or not?



Also, I changed out my FSB, which had steel pins running through actual holes on the underside of the barrel not just indentions, for a Daniel Defense low profile gas block. It is secured by screws which keep it clamped on. I have it tight, and put loctite on it. Do you think this might move and cause the gas tube to not line up properly with the gas hole in the barrel? I understand this can happen and cause malfunctions.