Training Load Out -vs- Real World

[Diz]

As I was reading some threads here today I came across that old saw about training as you fight. While in pure theory this sounds real good, when you try to implement it, you run into problems.

For instance, as an armed civilian, I usually carry a G-19 as my primary weapon. My secondary weapon is a M-4. Now that one fact alone dictates a lot of what or how I carry, but then there are the considerations of a 2-day training course.

For training purposes, we usually carry more mags and at least some water, and maybe some other support gear. Now I understand this maximizes training time by keeping us on-line longer with less down-time. But does this violate the train as you fight principle? Again, I understand why we are hammering thorugh several mags to get a drill down, but again, if you are carrying more ammo (and hydration) than you normally would have available, does this teach us "bad" habits?

If I am running drills on my hometown range, I try to fight like I will be carrying. That means my drills are limited to what I have on hand. That also means more frequent down time to reload.

I'm just curious as to what you guy's thoughts are on this because we all agree in principle on the train as you fight concept, yet many of us routinely train with additional gear.

I see both sides of this. If I'm spending $1,000.00+ on a high quality course, I want to maximize my training time. On the other hand, I want to train as realistically as possible.

[Jay Cunningham]

I personally think the "train like you fight" theory can be taken way too literally and way too far.

As an armed civilian you are most likely going to deploy your CCW to defend yourself. You are much less likely to employ your carbine, even though it is preferred in the anti-personnel role.

Yet we still train to become proficient with the carbine. Will civilians ever wear armor in real life? Maybe, maybe not, but it's nice to be armored in a class up to the threat level of the weapons you are training with. It's nice to have load bearing equpment to let you carry enough magazines where you can concentrate on the instruction and shooting instead of jamming magazines because you are running with just "one in your back pocket."

I don't think gear in a class detracts from how you would deploy in real life, as long as you keep a realistic outlook. That said, I also think it's a good idea to take pistol classes that teach 100% draw from concealment and I also think it's important to practice at the range with your minimal loadout.

There is room for both methodologies.

[rob_s]

I see it as a balancing act, as well as having to tailor your equipment to the class you are taking. I can get through a Randy Cain carbine class with two mag on my body and one in the gun. Pat Rogers now has in his class info that you should have a way to tote (IIRC) 5 mags to the line. As such, I can shoot Randy's class with nothing more than my Woolrich pants that hold a mag in each front flap pocket, but at Pat's class I prefer to wear my chest rig.

Either way, I like to train/practice with spare mags carried in a variety of locations. From a chest rig, to a front pocket, to a belt pouch, to a back pocket, etc. As a non-LE civilian I don't believe I'll ever get the benefit of choosing how I'm dressed or geared for a fight, so I figure it's better to be ready for any situation.

Or that may just be my way of rationalizing getting "jocked up" in my chest rig.

[Hawkeye]

I try to train, as I plan to fight, with the weapon and situation that the training is catered to. I think one mistake that people make when thinking about this, is that they use training to gauge what they will or will not ever "need", based on what they decide they may or may not ever face. Personally, I think that is flawed.
As an example, if I am in a fight, where I want an rifle, then I want the proper supporting gear to go with it. Doesnt matter if I ever think I wont get into that kind of situation. I can think of very few situations, where I would be in a fight with my rifle, that I not only would have access to my support gear for it, but would also WANT it, or that would prevent me from using it. Thats why I cater my gear for a class, to the class at hand.

If I am taking a defensive handgun class, then I use what I will normally have access to when carrying nothing but my handgun.

If I am taking a full blown carbine class of which the purpose of that class is to teach me how to fight with my carbine, then I use the gear that I plan to employ with that carbine.

Train with what you plan to fight with. If the crap hits the fan, whatever that may be for you and your requirements, and all you plan to fight with is your carbine and a couple of mags on you belt, then thats what you should train with. The crux here is to sit down, and really think about how you intend to fight and what you intend to fight with.

I also think its folly to try and determine what we think someone else may or may not face. What I think I may face, and what someone else thinks I may face, may be two very different things. Doesnt make it any less likely or less relevant to me though, as I am training for my concerns, not someone elses. If I went by the idea that there is little to no chance of me ever employing my carbine in a fight, and will most likely only ever deploy a handgun at most, then I am wasting good time and money training in how to use it. All I should be doing is taking handgun classes with my daily conceealed caarry holster, and little else.

Each individual needs to sit down, and think about what his concerns are, what he feels he may or may not have to face in the future, what weapon and related gear he wants to have and use to handle those situations, and then seek out training on how to employ that weapon and gear to handle thos situations, should they arise. I absolutley shy away from telling anyone what they are "likely" to face or not face in life, or what weapons, gear, or traning they should or should not get. Who am I to determine their future? After all, its not my money and time that they are spending.

I'll shut up with this example. You may be conerned, that one day, you'll have to fight off a horde of rioting thugs. You may want to train and equip accordingly. I may think that it is highly unlikely, and not want to waste my time and money preparing for such. If we went the rest of our lives, and I was right, it hasnt cost me a penny of my money or a minute of my time. If in two years I turn on the news, and your in the middle of fighting off that very horde as they try to burn down the homes and/or stores in your neighborhood, then I'll feel pretty stupid, and maybe even negligent if I talked you out of doing what you wanted to do.


Then again, I could just be taking too much medicine.

[markm]

I personally think the "train like you fight" theory can be taken way too literally and way too far.

Indeed it can. If I trained like I would realistically fight, I'd show up to carbean class in my boxer shorts with my bine because I'd most likely grab my rifle at night in my bedroom.

But the flip side can be even more ridiculous with the plate carriers and subloads and all of this stuff.

[Jay Cunningham]

But the flip side can be even more ridiculous with the plate carriers and subloads and all of this stuff.

Of course; I think from the responses that we are seeing a balancing act is indeed appropriate. It takes experience to figure out the correct loadout for you, but asking here is another way to help figure it out.

[SHIVAN]

I wear a very basic load in class. Chest rig with 4 carbine mags, "web" belt with 3 pistol mags. 1 each, pistol mag and carbine mag, in the guns.

If we are going to do a heavy COF, I add full mags to my dump pouch for time consideration.

In the real world, I would probably have a Glock 21 or 19, with 1 in the gun and either 1 or 2 on the belt.

If I have to grab a carbine, the shit has completely hit the fan, and I will be getting the full load on. That isn't likely.

[Hawkeye]

That isn't likely.

There's another one of those words/phrases that bug me......

There are dozens of things that we spend time and money preparing for every day, that arent likely, yet we do so anyway. This area should be no different. Isnt likely does not = wont happen. Thats how I look at it anyway, and the answer one will get if they ask me.

[rob_s]

However, many people spend a vastly disproportionate time on things that are far from likely. For example, concentrating on rifle shooting when you're much more likely to use a handgun.

[Hawkeye]

However, many people spend a vastly disproportionate time on things that are far from likely. For example, concentrating on rifle shooting when you're much more likely to use a handgun.

Maybe they do, but who's place is it to decide that? Who decides when they will use what item? Just because I am more "likely" to use something in a particular situation, doesnt mean you are. Besides, its their time to spend as they wish, no?