Push Daggers?

[MountainRaven]

Background: I'm a Benchmade whore. Read a review of their Adamas knife and decided to pick up a couple (folder and fixed, if autos were legal here, I'd get one, too). Then I picked up a Benchmade catalog and saw this under the Adamas Family section.

So it's a Sibert design, money goes to Ranger Assistance Foundation, &c. Push daggers are legal in Montana (in fact, except for autos, all bladed implements are legal in Montana), so I'm not really concerned about the legality of the weapon.

My question is: Is it a practical back-up to a handgun? The more research I do, the more I seem to understand the thing... and apparently they were once popular and common as a defensive tool, but since I tend to get no-BS answers here and since there doesn't appear to be any centralized information here on them....

Thanks!

ETA: And I assume that the Benchmade SOCP Dagger and Spartan Blades CQB Tool is a better 'get-off-me' blade than the push dagger. Is this correct? Does the push dagger offer any benefits over the SOCP (other than a slightly smaller footprint, making it potentially more comfortable to carry IWB)?

[rdbse]

Personally I would prefer the SOCP dagger to the Adamas due to the nature of the grip style. You get more leverage with the longer handle.

You should be able to conceal both easily, so you decision should come down to use and function.

[Trailrunner]

"My question is: Is it a practical back-up to a handgun?"

"Practical" as to:

Use, is preference proven by practice. Does it work for me? Have I proof tested it in training?

The Law, understanding/deciding/accepting responsibility in the grey world of rules and laws. It's a single use dagger, you punch stab people with.

It being simple, effective? Yes. Grab and punch. It's not a hammer or a ice pick, it's a fist. Simple gross motor skills come into play.

Easy to carry? Many options.

Negatives: you have a bar between your fingers. Geometry of bar, handle may not fit, be comfortable in your hand. Sheath may not work for you type of carry/environment needs.

Kabar TDI is very similar but has qualities in its shape and use that may be a good alternative for this type of "practical" back up knife.

Background, If you have a background in boxing, this would be a good fit. You just seriously upgraded your punching effectiveness.

For an opinion on this I searched and found John Mosby's blog, Mountain Guerrilla. He is a fan.

[Cecil Burch]

The main problem with almost every commercial push dagger is that the neck is too long. So as soon as you make contact with something that provides the tiniest bit of resistance (like another person's body) the blade turns and collapses in your hand that at worst generally damages your hand, and at the best results in complete failure of your objective (stabbing the bad guy so he stops trying to kill you).

As someone who spends an inordinate amount of time boxing, I really wanted to like the PD concept. I had a super slick sheath made up for a Cold Steel one that allowed me to grab and draw the knife with my left hand with a locked wrist (in the exact same position I would punch someone). It was a sweet set up.

The problem was I actually tested the blade (as well as a number of other commercial PDs) by punching different materials to simulate resistance. I wrapped up cardboard tubes in layers of carpet, duct tape, thick packed foam, etc. I even saran wrapped a round roast to a couple of cardboard tubes (old fax paper rolls) and proceeded to punch the crap out of them. No matter what, the blades turned. Tore the hell out of my hands. I did everything I could to secure the grip better, all to no avail. I gave up the dream.

If some production company would just shorten the neck, it might work. I recently saw a custom one that was the bomb. I plan on getting one of those ASAP, but I just have yet to see a commercial one that would work.

That was my experience, but YMMV.

[MountainRaven]

Thanks for the input, guys.

I already have the Benchmade SOCP (I might have picked up the Spartan, if I had known about them, at the time) and have had it for eighteen months. It's currently riding on my "war" belt. I did try for about a month to carry it IWB, but found the Benchmade scabbard to be uncomfortable. My love handles were, however, significantly larger than they are now. I think that the Spartan has the nicer scabbard for IWB, just judging from looking at it, and I may end up buying one. You know, for commonality. And totally not because I love knives and have way too many of them.

I do like that the SOCP comes with a trainer, so if I end up being someplace where daggers aren't legal, I can swap for the trainer. Not as effective, but should be pretty good with a hammerfist.

In any case, I did decide to pick up the Adamas push dagger from the LGS. They offered me a good deal on it and if I change my mind, I can always take it back. So far, its scabbard has proven to be very comfortable IWB. (I haven't tried it yet with my CCW kit, so I'll reveal more when I have a final position decided on. It may end up OWB in front of my pistol - which goes behind my hip).

I looked for some info from John Mosby's blog, Mountain Guerrilla, and ended up reading something about equipping the modern guerilla. Interesting read, although after reading through the titles of his archived entries, I can't help but wonder if I'm on an FBI watch list, now....

Not a complaint, just an observation. As though being an active poster here might not be sufficient enough for that....

Anyway. Cecil Burch: Your findings are interesting, as I thought I had read a number of complaints about how too many punch daggers have too short a "stem" and not nearly a long enough "spade"/hilt/handle.

[Serpico1985]

Cecile can you advise which one you saw that was da bomb?

[Cecil Burch]

Anyway. Cecil Burch: Your findings are interesting, as I thought I had read a number of complaints about how too many punch daggers have too short a "stem" and not nearly a long enough "spade"/hilt/handle.

The handles generally are too short based on the length of the neck. The longer the neck, the thicker/wider/longer the handle has to be. Unfortunately for concealed IWB carry, there is a point of diminishing returns when making the handle big enough.

IME, the reason people like a longer neck is because it feels more comfortable in the hand, and "feels" more like a knife. However, I have encountered few people who advocate a longer neck that have actually tried to hit with it full force on a realistic target that provides resistance. If we are going to use it truly as a punch dagger, then it has to ride low and close to the knuckles, which can be uncomfortable, especially if the person has not invested a lot of time working an empty hand punching mechanic. Again, this is just my experience.

[Cecil Burch]

Cecile can you advise which one you saw that was da bomb?

It's made by Ian Wendt of Special Circumstances. I can't remember the precise name of it, but just tell him it's the one I love and the one he made for Craig.

[Michael2007]

I love my SOCP dagger. It rides center of my vest and I can draw with either hand quick from an FI stance. It's also very lo pro on a black carrier.
Just my .02

[Michael2007]

Also I've run my SOCP out of my pocket with some success for CCW.