General Purpose Combat Rifle Setup - Getting Set Up

[ScottsBad]

While SS109 may be the current NATO standard, there are several other, far better rounds in use by any unit or group that can get away with it. Mk262, Mk318, Brown Tip, etc. Both M193 and M855 are limited in effectiveness, and even Big Army is moving away from using M855 as a combat round in favor of the completely different M855A1 round. For anything you plan on using for self defense, it behooves you to invest in quality ammo.

You know, the only thing I'm not sure about with the Ops recommendations is the blanket ammo statement. There are different ways to look at it. If you use M855 or M193 for practice and better ammo for serious shooting, where does that leave you if you want to stockpile ammo? Personally, I stockpile M855 and a little M193, and I buy better ammo for HD and target shooting (or if I was competing). I practice with M855 and a some M193, that way I can rotate my stockpiled ammo.

Stockpiling $1+ a round ammo doesn't make sense to me, at least with my budget. Part of the reason for practicing with M855 is to learn the limits. Also, I don't see myself shooting more that 200-300 yards with 5.56. If I need to I'll pull out a SCAR 17.

While everyone has different views on use of their rifles and the type of ammo to use, there are certainly worse rounds to use than Federal M855.

As far as hardware goes I would agree. Except I'm not sure about all the M&P models. I also believe that you do need to be prepared to spend $1000-1100 minimum new and if it's your first rifle, buy don't build.
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Tell me where I'm going wrong here.

[Alpha-17]

I will point out that the average joe on the street is going to be able to buy XM193 and M855 ammo very easily and in large quantities. Mk262 is expensive and it not always in stock. As civilians, we are not able to acquire some of the ammo the military uses.

That is true, but better quality ammo is available even at the local Wally World for not a terrible price. Federal Fusion or Winchester PDX-1 both fit the bill for HD ammo, and in that purpose, you wouldn't need a metric sh!t ton, just a couple of mags. Be easy to buy some, zero/confirm a zero, save a mag or two, and practice with a cheaper FMJ ammo that has a similar POI.

If you're looking to stockpile, I can understand buying cheap and stacking deep. I've got several thousand rounds of M855 and M193 stocked away for a very rainy day. That said, as soon as I hit my minimum quantity, I switched over to quality ammo, and stock Mk318 or Barnes 70gr hand loads.

I guess the moral being that I want the best out of my weapons. I will not carry FMJs in a handgun for defensive use, and if given half a chance, will not use FMJs in a rifle until I really need to (and by that point, I'll just be happy to have ammo).

[C4LT1]

That is true, but better quality ammo is available even at the local Wally World for not a terrible price. Federal Fusion or Winchester PDX-1 both fit the bill for HD ammo.

Not sure where you live but in my local... I'm lucky if I can find any 5.56 ammo at all and when I do... the prices at Wally World are so inflated I refuse to make the purchase.. So much so that I choose to look for online sources. I'd appreciate it if you would give me some feedback on the Federal Fusion or Winchester PDX-1 ammo you mentioned.

Also.. should I take your comment to mean... the Federal Fusion or Winchester PDX-1 rounds are better than the ammo given to our troops? I ask because I have a child that just joined the USMC last year and another on the way next year. Their decisions to join the USMC are the reason I purchased my AR's.

That said, as soon as I hit my minimum quantity, I switched over to quality ammo, and stock Mk318 or Barnes 70gr hand loads.

I don't understand your reasoning in this regard. My though would be to save the "quality ammo, and stock Mk318 or Barnes 70gr hand loads." rather than switching over to what seems to read as lesser quality ammo. Please explain.

What I can relay is this... it definitely sucks to be new to the AR platform, wanting to take tactical courses, and knowing.... You definitely need more ammo!!

Thx for listening.

[Alpha-17]

Alight, I'll see if I actually make sense.

Not sure where you live but in my local... I'm lucky if I can find any 5.56 ammo at all and when I do... the prices at Wally World are so inflated I refuse to make the purchase.. So much so that I choose to look for online sources. I'd appreciate it if you would give me some feedback on the Federal Fusion or Winchester PDX-1 ammo you mentioned.

I've had a lot of luck finding this in my area, and I travel across a good portion of my state every couple of weeks when I go home for a weekend. I can usually find either the Federal or Winchester ammo in the various Wal-Marts, Cabela's, or Local Gun stores I visit. More expensive than FMJ/Ball ammo, but it's not something you'll blast every day. As for feedback, I don't have any first hand experience with the Fusion, but I've heard a lot of good stuff about it, and more than one has compared it to Gold Dot 64gr SP rounds. I have tried some of the Winchester 60gr HP PDX-1, and found that it grouped well, and virtually disintegrated when I fired it into water. Good for a home defense round that you don't want to over penetrate, but still want to make a helluva hole in the bad guy.

Also.. should I take your comment to mean... the Federal Fusion or Winchester PDX-1 rounds are better than the ammo given to our troops? I ask because I have a child that just joined the USMC last year and another on the way next year. Their decisions to join the USMC are the reason I purchased my AR's.

Honestly, almost any SP or hollow point round made by a decent company will be better than M855 that the military uses. It's never been great ammo, it was not designed for the same job that defense ammo was, and it suffers from the limitations imposed by the Hague Convention of 1899. Don't expect things used by the military to be the best; I've learned that the hard way after 7+ years of active duty.

I don't understand your reasoning in this regard. My though would be to save the "quality ammo, and stock Mk318 or Barnes 70gr hand loads." rather than switching over to what seems to read as lesser quality ammo. Please explain.

Sorry, worded that badly. Meant to say is that I do have a few thousand rounds of M855 and/or M193 stocked away. I stored the minimum number I wanted, and then I started storing better, higher quality ammo. I still have the cheap stuff stored, but it'll be the first to go if I decide to sell, trade, or use any of it. The higher quality stuff will be saved for a "rainy day". For practice, I'll use cheap FMJ reloads, or low quality (and price) ammo from Wal-Mart, etc.

[Renegade04]

I just did a search for the Mk318 ammo and was coming up dry. It was out of stock everywhere I checked. If you can find a source that does have it at a reasonable, I would consider buying some. If not, my M193 and M855 will do the job just fine.

[C4LT1]

Alpha,

Thanks for the clarification. Makes perfect sense now.

[Failure2Stop]

I just did a search for the Mk318 ammo and was coming up dry. It was out of stock everywhere I checked. If you can find a source that does have it at a reasonable, I would consider buying some. If not, my M193 and M855 will do the job just fine.

The 70 and 50 gr TSX loads are pretty equivalent to Mk318 in performance, and far superior to M193 and M855.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/615...free-box-of-50
M193 and M855, in today's ammo market, should be reserved for close to mid-range practice. Yeah, it'll work for some stuff, but if I only have one chance to alter the course of a fight, I want it to do the most in a single go.

[SOW_0331]

OP (post, not necessarily postER) is too black and white while being the sort of emotionally close minded "advice" that is making the AR a symbol of a culture most newcomers are wary of. I don't mean that necessarily in a bad way or to say that it isn't true of the sentiment regurgitated here ad neaseum, just that it's geared towards one type of user and pushed by those who benefit from it.

First, the good/bad lists aren't complete and that's fine, but it would help to explain WHY. What makes a rifle like those listed (which isn't only missing sionics) the GOOD ones is a series of information that is often listed and would greatly benefit the new shooter. If you're trying to do a sticky-esque "here's what you need to start" post, don't tell people what to buy, tell them what to look for. As for the BAD list, that's unfair and not really accurate. I would rather have a Spikes Tactical than a M&P15. There are less known manufacturers that don't have the circulation as the others but are superior in some cases in quality of tooling and specs. Some Mk12 enthusiasts could tell a three gunner about a good barrel manufacturer and stump them on the spot, so it's important to know what you should accept and what to be cautious of. A general broad statement like "other garage brands are crappy anyway" might make someone feel defensive about their purchase when there is a LOT the new shooter can learn on a rifle that wouldn't necessarily stand up to hard use.

"Aimpoint leads EOTech in the serious shooter market"...hmmm...no. Not if you're posting about a "combat ready rifle" they don't. SOF units of all shapes and sizes are using ten EOTechs for every one Aimpoint they may run and this isn't just because of the procurement process like so many have been told to believe. The Army may have flooded their armories with Aimpoints a few years back but that wasn't because the whole Army ground force is a "serious shooter", it's because they aided a failing marksmanship program that needed to be corrected quickly because of combat operations. The two both have benefits. They both have weaknesses that need to be noted by one searching to fit a particular bill. Either will be a good choice and a new shooter should learn what makes them so superior to the NCStar and ChiCom knock offs.

"It's stupid to get M855/193 ammo, get XXXX ammo because..." The reason those composites are the standard chosen for .mil use isn't because some crooked general is lining his pockets off of material purchases. Even saying "super dooper secret squirrels are using XXXX for a reason" is misleading. That reason isn't overall superiority, it's just better for their application. You really think everyone is stupid if they don't load all their "combat" mags with hollow point self defense ammo? The right tool for the job and all that.

Comparing what a competition shooter uses to "stomp" another on the timer, while saying it's for combat application, is like saying you should buy a Nascar driver's tires to go off roading. They're so entirely different that they almost don't have anything in common other than the foundation of driving a vehicle. The parts aren't interchangeable for the intended use.

Should a new shooter get a light? What kind, where should they mount it, why? Are they stupid assholes if they don't? Is it possible that a Streamlight is as good as a SureFire, even if Grant doesn't make money off pushing SL sales? No...couldn't be...and what about the new shooter who isn't sure about going piston or DI? Instead of telling him he's an idiot, tell him what each one does that the other doesn't, and let him decide if it's best for his use.

I'm not disagreeing with the whole post or even a lot of the information. It's the wording and what's missing that I think can be approached differently, but that's just like...my opinion, man.

[Koshinn]

"It's stupid to get M855/193 ammo, get XXXX ammo because..." The reason those composites are the standard chosen for .mil use isn't because some crooked general is lining his pockets off of material purchases. Even saying "super dooper secret squirrels are using XXXX for a reason" is misleading. That reason isn't overall superiority, it's just better for their application. You really think everyone is stupid if they don't load all their "combat" mags with hollow point self defense ammo? The right tool for the job and all that.

Well to be honest, they're the standard because of the Hague Conventions, because NATO standardization, and because we have so damn much of both of them from the decades they've been issued.

Cost and Hague aside, I'm sure all mil would be using either 77gr SMKs, some form of black tip, or bonded soft points depending on situation.

[Moltke]

The list of good and bad AR makers is not complete, I don't know how anyone would maintain such a thing. Threads that can help you understand good and bad AR's are here - https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...e-Base-Threads

"Aimpoint leads EOTech" was not the point of the paragraph, the point was "go buy a good optic" which both Aimpoint and EOTech are mostly equivalent.

As far as ammo goes? Yeah. Buy a crap ton of cheap ammo for fast action training and precision ammo for precision training, but if you're planning to actually get in a gunfight then using high performance ammo is a pretty solid idea.

Comparing what a competition shooter uses to "stomp" another on the timer, while saying it's for combat application,

Actually I wasn't saying competition gear is good for combat applications, I was saying that I've seen guys with basic gear (M4 with red dot) clean up in shooting competitions against expensive race guns (custom built 3 Gun rifles with high powered scopes).