Why I think the Smith and Wesson J Frame is a good Sole Self-Defense Weapon.

[JeremyW]

After following the thread that Greg Bell started, "S&W 442 or other J-frame as sole self-defense weapon," I thought I would share some of my thoughts on the subject.

Growing up my first firearm was an Ithaca Single Lever Action .22cal. I learned to shoot that rifle and make every shot count, because I knew I only had one round to make it happen. I got so good with it that I was able to shoot rabbits on the run and pheasants in midair. When I brother was of age, my Dad bought him a Marlin .22cal with a banana clip. He couldn't shoot for crap with it, mostly because he would spray and pray.

Fast forward to present day. I have been a Lansing (Michigan) Police Officer for fifteen years working road patrol most of it. On duty I carry the department issued Glock 21sf (.45) as my primary weapon and a S&W 340CT (J Frame .357) as my backup and off duty. I carry the S&W 340 in my weak side front pocket at work and off duty in various other methods. In the summer time, I can carry it easily and comfortable in shorts. I carry this gun everywhere I go religiously.

I can't argue with the fact that the 340 only has five rounds, but here are my thoughts on that. First, when I am off duty I do not wear body armor, or carry a radio. So if something was to jump off, I am pretty exposed without help. Meaning I don't want to get involved in a gun battle where I am already at a disadvantage. I don't have any delusions of grandeur. I know I am not equipped to stop a bank robbery or some other major crime involving a gun. It would be best if I was a good witness and provided 911 and responding Police with quick and accurate information.

The main reason I carry off duty is that when I am at the grocery store or mall and I am getting my kids in and out of the car, I know that I am a target for a Car Jacker. Letting some thug take my car with my kids in it is unthinkable. That is a deadly force situation in my mind. Knowing that most gun battles take place up close and personal, I am confident that I can unload five well placed rounds on target. This is not the only reason I carry off duty, but one that I am the most concerned about. Revolvers have several advantages over a semi auto and Greg Bell/others have already covered that.

I have seen several highly trained Police Officers at the range spray and pray like my brother did with his Marlin .22cal. You are accountable for every round you send down range. I know I only have five rounds and I need to make them all to count. Whereas others with high capacity guns might not have the same mentality, subconsciously or consciously. I know this does not apply to everyone. If you can carry a high capacity firearm everyday no matter the circumstances that is great. I am not one of those people.

These are just my thoughts.

[CRAMBONE]

So you think ammunition capacity determines marksmanship?

I'll tell all of my 0317 buddies to only use bolt guns from now on. And everyone down load AR to 1 round that way they will be sure to hit the target.

[JeremyW]

Not for everyone. I do think that I am more aware of my capacity limitation and I concentrate harder on my marksmanship skills. Like I said these are just my thoughts and this does not apply to everyone. Please don’t read this and think I am bashing anyone who does not use a J Frame.

[Voodoo_Man]

Not to start this thread on a downward spiral, but I have to post the following:

Capacity = Time in Fight
Accuracy = Determining Factor

Having said that I have a 642. Would I carry that over my G19 at any given moment? No.

There is a time and place for revolvers, and unless you want a handicap going to into a deadly force confrontation there is simply no reason to carry one daily.

[operator81]

Food for thought. It seems you're counting on being attacked by a lone assailant up close where sighted fire isn't important. You said you're in Lansing, MI, which has a large black population. Given the poorer areas around there, the likelihood of you being attacked by a black male are higher than being attacked by a white. We'll add Hispanic in with the blacks as well. Typically (based on national crime statistics) white males will carry out violent attacks alone whereas blacks and Hispanics attack in groups of 2 or more. And in typical predator/prey fashion, they often approach/attack in a V or L-formation, so now you're having to direct fire two different directions, to 2 or more subjects with 5 rounds in a J-frame. Not good.

I've been a LEO for 7+ years. I'm a firearms instructor and have taught force on force. I was in a fatal OIS this last June. I won, he lost. I had 60 rounds hanging from my AR and I didn't need them all, but I thank God they were there just incase. As for keeping track of your rounds, I fired nearly double what I thought I did. Shootings are fluid and dynamic. Load 5 rounds in your pistol and do some force on force training. It won't go well for you.

Do what you want to protect yourself and your family. My family deserves the best protection I can give them, I pack accordingly. I'm willing to bet if you left your house knowing you were going to be in an armed confrontation you wouldn't be carrying that .38. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

[The_One]

After following the thread that Greg Bell started, "S&W 442 or other J-frame as sole self-defense weapon," I thought I would share some of my thoughts on the subject.

Growing up my first firearm was an Ithaca Single Lever Action .22cal. I learned to shoot that rifle and make every shot count, because I knew I only had one round to make it happen. I got so good with it that I was able to shoot rabbits on the run and pheasants in midair. When I brother was of age, my Dad bought him a Marlin .22cal with a banana clip. He couldn't shoot for crap with it, mostly because he would spray and pray.

Fast forward to present day. I have been a Lansing (Michigan) Police Officer for fifteen years working road patrol most of it. On duty I carry the department issued Glock 21sf (.45) as my primary weapon and a S&W 340CT (J Frame .357) as my backup and off duty. I carry the S&W 340 in my weak side front pocket at work and off duty in various other methods. In the summer time, I can carry it easily and comfortable in shorts. I carry this gun everywhere I go religiously.

I can't argue with the fact that the 340 only has five rounds, but here are my thoughts on that. First, when I am off duty I do not wear body armor, or carry a radio. So if something was to jump off, I am pretty exposed without help. Meaning I don't want to get involved in a gun battle where I am already at a disadvantage. I don't have any delusions of grandeur. I know I am not equipped to stop a bank robbery or some other major crime involving a gun. It would be best if I was a good witness and provided 911 and responding Police with quick and accurate information.

The main reason I carry off duty is that when I am at the grocery store or mall and I am getting my kids in and out of the car, I know that I am a target for a Car Jacker. Letting some thug take my car with my kids in it is unthinkable. That is a deadly force situation in my mind. Knowing that most gun battles take place up close and personal, I am confident that I can unload five well placed rounds on target. This is not the only reason I carry off duty, but one that I am the most concerned about. Revolvers have several advantages over a semi auto and Greg Bell/others have already covered that.

I have seen several highly trained Police Officers at the range spray and pray like my brother did with his Marlin .22cal. You are accountable for every round you send down range. I know I only have five rounds and I need to make them all to count. Whereas others with high capacity guns might not have the same mentality, subconsciously or consciously. I know this does not apply to everyone. If you can carry a high capacity firearm everyday no matter the circumstances that is great. I am not one of those people.

These are just my thoughts.

Trying to understand the logic here but just can't. I was a cop for 26 years and the departments I was in went from revolvers to semi-autos and for the life of me I can't think of one good reason to go backwards to a revolver. I suppose in a one-on-one situation the limited capacity of a wheelgun would be enough but facing multiple assailants? Laying down cover fire? These are just two areas where a revolver would be a hindrance, not an asset.
Sorry, to each his own but I just can't go with this.

[ST911]

The J-frame is a viable defensive tool. Not unlike other systems, to get the most out of it you must understand its strengths and limitations thoroughly and practice regularly. A system-specific course of instruction is well advised. Among the leaders, check out the work of Michael de Bethencourt and Claude Werner.

I attended and reviewed a weekend with MdB here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...es-10-11-13-13

I hope to be able to get to Claude's course soon as well.

[drsal]

I believe the post by 'operator81' summed it rather well. It's 2014, and with the various high caliber 9mm, .45, .40 ammo and semi auto pistols available, the fact that some are still seriously advocating a five shot snubby as a primary defense weapon seems a bit limited to me. To each his own, and given an individual's area and requirements a revolver may be all one needs, or maybe just a pocketknife may suffice, or a hiking stick, whistle ?

[Chameleox]

I've been a LEO for 7+ years. I'm a firearms instructor and have taught force on force. I was in a fatal OIS this last June. I won, he lost. I had 60 rounds hanging from my AR and I didn't need them all, but I thank God they were there just incase. As for keeping track of your rounds, I fired nearly double what I thought I did. Shootings are fluid and dynamic. Load 5 rounds in your pistol and do some force on force training. It won't go well for you.

Good points.

Likewise, I was involved in an OIS last year. My incident could just as well have occurred off-duty; there was nothing about it that restricted this scenario to being confined to the on duty cop world. Bottom line, the guy took a number of rounds, from 3 different weapons (2 handguns, 1 AR), and still advanced on me before going down. The 2 handguns involved both shot over the capacity of a 5 shot snubbie. This incident occurred in close range; not quite fight in a phone booth range, but very close.

Bottom line: don't count on only needing 5 rounds, or being attacked by 1 assailant who quits the fight after taking a round or two, or neatly falling into the parameters of what the FBI or whoever puts out about ranges or numbers of rounds fired.
It's not only your life, but the lives of those around you, who are affected by your choices.

Stay safe brother.

[glocktogo]

For 95% of us, accuracy degradation in a fight WILL happen. How much is a matter of training and mindset. I don't look at capacity as the determining factor, but as vodoo man so eloquently put it, capacity = time in fight. Going a bit further, the bigger the gun, the easier it is to handle at speed. When I pull out of the garage, I'm acutely aware of what I'm carrying and what I know I'm capable of with that particular sidearm. This factors into my defense capability mindset, which is important should you need to employ the OODA Loop under pressure.

All things being equal, more is more.