Did the ATF Open the Door for Manufacture of New Machineguns for trust?

[nova3930]

Rational basis is a very, very low hurdle. The effect of the Hughes Amendment has been to drive prices of MGs way up and beyond the ability of most people to pay; if you accept, as the courts do, that placing some limit on gun ownership is a legitimate governmental function, something that restricts the supply of guns generally perceived to be the most dangerous is rationally related to that goal. And the date being arbitrary is not the same as the ban being arbitrary - there's plenty of precedent, for example, laws that ban more light bulbs or top-loading washing machines from being manufactured without banning existing ones. Grandfathering is not, legally speaking, an arbitrary distinction. Neither is, for example, a 16" barrel even though that is arbitrary from a common sense standpoint. In that sense any law is arbitrary.

The primary difference is that in the other things you mentioned, they're not covered by a specifically enumerated right. Secondarily, none of those are truly bans. In the light bulb case, you can still make and import incandescent light bulbs IF they meet the efficiency standards. It's a de facto ban but not a de jure ban. Generally grandfathering isn't arbitrary, but I think in this particular case, it is due to still allowing transfers to go forward at all. As far as <16" barrels, again, its an issue of restriction vs outright prohibition. Again, I think that's why the argument has a certain strength in this case. It's not seeking to overturn the NFA, just the prohibition on post 86 transfers. Leaving the underlying regulatory scheme intact gives a judge an out by retaining the gov't ability to restrict supply in other ways, like bumping up the tax. It may mean that eventually the NFA tax on MGs gets bumped up to $3k, but $3k tax on a $1,500 FA AR is still a damn sight better than a $15,000 AR with a $200 tax....

This thread is, like the lawsuit, mostly wishful thinking.

You don't know until you try. I seem to recall people making some of the same arguments about Heller and McDonald....

[oberstgreup]

You're making the mistake of trying to parse out the issues using common sense.That is not how courts will decide the case. As for the enumerated right argument, you can't get there unless you hold that there is a 2nd Amendment right to own machine guns, and the courts will not rule that way, so [in the courts' view, which is the only one that matters here] there is no constitutional right involved. As for the arbitrariness, the point is that whatever the subject of the law, setting an arbitrary date and grandfathering in everything made before that date is not arbitrary in the sense you're trying to use it. None of the differences you're trying to draw matter for that purpose. There are a thousand other examples but listing them is pointless. Grandfathering is not arbitrary from a rational basis standpoint.

Trust me, I do this for a living. This is an issue of legal analysis. Common sense plays zero part in it.

[AnthonyCumia]

You're making the mistake of trying to parse out the issues using common sense.That is not how courts will decide the case. As for the enumerated right argument, you can't get there unless you hold that there is a 2nd Amendment right to own machine guns, and the courts will not rule that way, so [in the courts' view, which is the only one that matters here] there is no constitutional right involved. As for the arbitrariness, the point is that whatever the subject of the law, setting an arbitrary date and grandfathering in everything made before that date is not arbitrary in the sense you're trying to use it. None of the differences you're trying to draw matter for that purpose. There are a thousand other examples but listing them is pointless. Grandfathering is not arbitrary from a rational basis standpoint.

Trust me, I do this for a living. This is an issue of legal analysis. Common sense plays zero part in it.

Sad but true...Then again lets lead this charge...What do we have to do lose?

We are also going after the NFA as a whole, once again what do we have to lose?

[AnthonyCumia]

This is the correct answer.

The spirit of the law was to ban the ownership of MGs by civilians made after 1986. A judge will rule in the favor of the government.

The MG ban was quickly drafted and hastily passed into law. This "loophole" is due to poor drafting and reading. There is no loophole.

Trusts are pieces of paper, they don't posses anything. The gun is physically possessed by a natural person, and the Hughes Amendment banned the possession of a post 1986 MG by a natural person.

This is nothing more than a clerical error. Less than 10 of these were approved from what I can gather.

If the stamp holder does not comply with the ATF revoking the stamp, the ATF can get a search warrant using the position the owner plans to proceed with the MG build and is not cooperating.

That number is as high as 200 from what the NOLO on AFRCOM has said.

[nova3930]

Trust me, I do this for a living. This is an issue of legal analysis. Common sense plays zero part in it.

And plenty of lawyers have been wrong about plenty of court cases in the past. I appreciate the perspective you're bringing but we'll just have to agree to disagree. Assuming defeat before you even start is poor practice in anything...

[nova3930]

Sad but true...Then again lets lead this charge...What do we have to do lose?

We are also going after the NFA as a whole, once again what do we have to lose?

The answer really is nothing. No judge was willing to stick their neck out to strike down "separate but equal" until one was. No judge was willing to stick their neck out and affirm the 2nd amendment as an individual right until one was. If you don't try and assume the answer is no, then the answer will always be no....

[JG007]

This going to be the same lawyers and clients that say the income tax is illegal?

[oberstgreup]

What did we have to lose by asking ATF whether using SIG brace as a makeshift stock for a pistol was legal?

The answer is plenty.

Stirring up the courts, the politicians, and the general public over machine guns could be a disaster. Suppose the courts do rule in favor of the plaintiffs - what's to stop Congress from simply amending the GCA and revoking the grandfather clause, making all civilian transfers of all MGs illegal? Not the NRA, we know that already. Or maybe amending the NFA to ban trusts from owning machine guns? Or raising the tax for the stamp to $10,000?

Most people in this country don't even know that owning a machine gun is legal. We're probably better off with them not being made aware of it.

[Got UZI]

^^^Hmmm....didn't I say the same thing a few pages back??

Look at it this way-if you want something bad enough you will find a way to buy it. Yes MG's cost 10X or more than what they are worth due to a limited supply. On the flip side-you show me an investment that will give you a guaranteed return on your investment (I doubled my money in less than 5 years) and you have a solid/tangible object in your hand that you can use if needed. I worked my way up the ladder until I was able to buy my first MG, I sold it to buy another one last year. I have sold off several nice firearms to buy another MG. I don't waste my money on stupid shit like most seem to do and I don't buy junk. Would I like to have more than what I have?? YES Does the cost of them hold me back?? YES but I would rather pay the money for them than have some jackass ruin it for everyone due to he or she not knowing how to handle a MG and ****ing up royal with it (little girl killing instructor come to mind) that gave MG's a black eye because there were several failures in that case.

Main thing is this-the less the gun grabbers know about certain things the better. Don't rock the boat too much or you might tip the damn thing over then you will hear even more cry assing going on from people. Case in point-again the Sig arm brace led to the M855 and SS109 because there was a large influx of AR "pistols" being sold and that meant there was a pile of AP "handgun ammunition" on the market. Stupid gun people are their own worst enemy. How much did that $125 Sig AB really save you in the long run?????

[jpmuscle]

Really? You guys think the people functioning at the upper levels of our government as career bureaucrats and hate our liberties don't know avenues of restrictions they should or should not pursue and when?