NEW Samson PRO Video (Shooting Stances)

[26 Inf]

In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived and who didn't.

Ya know I keep hearing this, yet it seems far from the truth when such things are in continual discussion...Newhall for one.

Having been in a few scrapes on the street, being able to sit in on AA debriefs etc. over the years, this IS one of the things I do look at...and have been doing so for about 20 years now. Those who have seen the elephant and knows where it poops, also seem to pay attention to such things...at least with the folks I keep in touch with anyway.

Not paying attention to the details of such things is leaving an important part of training behind.

Google - Murphy's Laws of Combat or Marine Laws of Combat - don't know of the originator. I believe said another way 'Technique is fine, but results are the only things that really count.'

Newhall was definitely the seminal event that made LE realize they needed to make some changes to the way officers train.

[John_Burns]

Also called Satterwhite Ready. Iirc, this position was picked up from the staff at Mid-South, some of who had very heavy shotgun experience.

In sporting clays that would be "unmounted" ie butt stock below the shoulder. International skeet requires the shooter stay unmounted until the clay bird is visible. Recoil control is actually very important in sporting clays and in skeet because of "pairs". The split time on some true pairs, including the transition to the second bird, can get below .5 seconds and shooting a 12 gauge with an ounce of shot produces quite a bit more recoil than an AR.

Short video of sporting clays with the AR and unmounted ready.


For what it is worth a shot laterally through the torso is more dangerous than one straight on due to the increase chance of both lungs being punctured. In hunting a shot that only hits one lung of an animal is at times even survivable for the animal. Puncture both lungs and the end comes pretty quick.

[Samson-Pro]

but an officer who was shot with a 7.62x39mm cartridge through the armpit would have been just as dead as if it went through his IIIa soft armor, head on. So those instances shouldn't be used to influence a decision on how to stand with a gun in you hand.

That is a pretty absolute statement, that I don’t believe you can substantiate. I do know that way back before TCCC, the Marine Corps spent a whole bunch of time teaching me how to deal with sucking chest wounds, so there must be some potential for surviving a 7.62x39 to the chest.

I could just as absolutely assert that you are more likely to survive a rifle wound to the chest if it penetrates square into the frontal chest wall as it only gets one organ that way, hopefully not the heart.

I may be nuts, but given the choice between getting shot through the armpit into the chest cavity, or straight through from the front, I'm calling front.

I have no problem recommending that an officer shoot in a way that maximizes their lethality, rather than sacrifices it while depending on their enemies marksmanship to land rounds on their chest.

Well **** me running, I didn't say anything about standing still and sucking bullets. And in terms of lethality, I don't keep track, but I've had to testify several times about training after one of our folks went out and won a gunfight. Once again, I'd like to stress I'm talking police officers.

Taking rounds on your soft armor isn't an easy thing to fight through –

It’s not easy but a handgun hit (as opposed to rifle) to the vest does not incapacitate nor throw you to the ground. Officers fight through such events. Go to the DuPont Survivors Club and watch some videos they have of officers taking multiple rounds and staying in the fight, here’s one –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMU2L...?v=RMU2LuE-aak

Your brachial artery isn't going to be protected no matter how you stand, and that's still a lethal target on the body –

2002-2011 – number of officers killed by shots to the arms or hands – ZERO.

Also, I think I’d be a bit more concerned with a hit to the axillary artery (the brachial’s mother) – you aren’t going to TQ a wound to that artery.

If you are a trainer, you have to make decisions on what you are going to train, and you ought to be able to explain the reasons for those decisions. I'm comfortable with my reasoning within the LEO arena so that has been what we've begun with for over 15 years. It's one way, not the way.

@26Inf Thank you for your contribution. Wish I had more time to stay current with all of these discussions but I get pulled in a million different directions. Thank you for the very informative post and also for giving us some medical insight. Andrew and I have both worked for several EMS agencies (I still am currently working) both municipal and private and Andrew was a qualified SWAT medic before taking his position at Samson. I didn't really have time to get into some of the finer medical points but you had them covered. I'll say one more time that there are no absolutes. unique problems, unique solutions. We also are not so conceited or beholden to our pride to think there is not more than one way to skin a cat. Shooting is a martial art and my study and instruction of others in the field is constantly evolving. The reality is that a 15 degree difference in someone's stance and whether there stock is at position 3 or 5 is for the most part trivial. Many have already pointed out there are MANY other factors which may or may not be more critical at any given time (mindset, SA, use of cover etc.) No one in this discussion seems to be actually advocating for the use of a traditional marksmanship style stance at all. All of us just have a slightly different take on many of the same "improvements" to it. It's not worth making enemies over. I welcome instruction from all individuals with good information to offer regardless of their background. If any of you are in the area I would welcome you to come share with us as well and we can learn something from one another on our range in NH. -best regards Tyler