NEW Samson PRO Video (Shooting Stances)

[Samson-Pro]

New videos released all the time. We have several on training topics we will be rolling out in the near future!

[Jim D]

Since this is typically where technique is discussed... I'll bite. I think it's a little misleading to compare video clips where you're changing multiple technique variables at the same time to suggest a conclusion.

For example, you make a radical change in the shooters interface with the gun, but you also change his body position at the same time.

You could have left his body bladed, his stock long, but changed where/how he gripped the rifle and had the same increase in recoil management.

A forward lean can only oppose recoil until one is pushed back to a neutral or rear leaning posture. By planting the rear foot and shooting off of it (like how a boxer lands bigger hits off of his rear foot) you're effectively putting the recoil into the ground, rather than relying on a % of your body weight being forward of neutral to try to oppose it.

Forward leaning posture isn't "modern". It's been taught for 20+ years, dating back to when the sub-gun was king and the associated recoil was lighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cMO7v6m1cI

A more extended support arm is more "modern", but that can be done regardless of the position of the shooters shoulders, hips, or feet.

All of these guys are running nearly full length stocks (with some A5's all the way out) and bladed postures.

Dave Borrensen:


JD Potynsky:




Kyle Defoor:


Frank Proctor:


Kyle Lamb:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGPEgRZwIw

I think you get the point...

Placing your feet in such a way that the only way to control recoil is to stand out of balance, seems like a fundamental error to me. Speed and the ability to move somewhere are critical (regardless of how many directions the range is you're on), and putting yourself out of balance (in your case, forward) seems to go against that principle.

[Voodoo_Man]

sweet vid, thanks for posting.

[Arctic1]

Depending on when "modern" is counted from, extending the support arm has been done for several decades:

A couple of pics from the seventies:

The norwegian G3 manual:


Som Rhodesian guys:

[Failure2Stop]

Depending on when "modern" is counted from, extending the support arm has been done for several decades:

Yup.
It's all been done before.
The cycle of technology/application/training is interesting.

[markm]

The cycle of technology/application/training is interesting.

It's circus entertainment for me. I can't wait for the mag well grip to be THE TECHNIQUE again!

My favorite all time, completely retarded technique... (and I do this at the house every so often to amuse myself) is where you hold the gun off your body, out in front of you pointed up... and then shoulder it and bring the muzzle down on target as needed to slay bodies.

[Samson-Pro]

@Arctic1 Thank you for posting the picture of the rhodesian soldiers, I was going to post that one as well. These techniques date way back if memory serves the Rhodesian image is from 1971. When we talked about "modern" it was a relative term. The "advent" of these techniques over the last 5-10 years rather than the "invent". Almost nothing is new or radically different and there are many many instructors with congruent and opposing views on the subject. To address a few points in the first post though I would offer the following:

1. Yes we did change both the shooters grip and stance. Part of the reason for this was to prevent the creation of a 30 minute video that no one would take the time to watch. Better in general for us to bite things off in smaller pieces and do followup videos. It is possible to adopt an acceptable level of recoil management with a variety of stances/grips but in general the bladed stance allows more rotational force to be applied through the hips and also creates energy transfer over the shoulder with a longer moment arm as the stock is farther from the pivot point. We will be doing a video soon on some kinesiology and get a third party opinion on this as well from some non shooters.

1A. There are also some non recoil related advantages to this. Increasing your field of view in the threat area, making more efficient work of multiple targets by allowing the shooting to more easily address multiple targets across the threat area without having to twist into an awkward position or readjust feet, as well as exposing as much body armor surface area to the threat.

2. We certainly would not advocate that students put themselves off balance at any time. distributing the weight more evenly across the platform is actually the objective. With a slight forward body lean the weight is not shifted forward but centered over the feet. Much like an athlete (ie shortstop, volleyball player, tennis player etc.) who may need to move quickly in any direction. As was mentioned, moving quickly and efficiently is very important. Dropping into a deep full auto posture makes that movement more difficult but may be required given certain circumstances. Everyone has probably seen the video of Costa shooting the M60 on full auto off hand. This situation obviously requires adopting a less than optimum position for rapid movement in order to handle the forces applied. However, it is a unique situation with a unique solution. It is important to note that typically do allow the shooter to adjust a foot more rearward i terms of stance to either help with balance when firing larger calibers etc. as long as the shooter can still move in any direction without the use of a "false step" (ie gathering his/her feet before moving) in any direction.

3. Stance is a very important part of the shooting equation. However, it is less important than the ability to control the weapon with upper body alone. I say this because as soon as we get into shooting on the move the upper body and lower body have to become in a sense independent of one another. A deep full auto posture is not easy to maintain while engaging multiple targets on the move. Keeping the core tight and learning to mitigate recoil to the greatest extent possible without relying on a planted foot offers many advantages. Shooters can maintain a stable platform and upper body rigidity even if they are asked to adopt awkward foot positioning (ie Urban prone, rice patty prone, kneeling etc.)

In closing, nothing should be taken out of context, or construed to mean there is always one answer to every problem. We need to consider philosophy of use as well as application. Thank you all for watching, and contributing to the discussion! We love hearing everyone's take on this stuff, it only makes us better! I have been told the day I think I have heard it all is the day I should hang it up LOL.

[Samson-Pro]

It's circus entertainment for me. I can't wait for the mag well grip to be THE TECHNIQUE again!

My favorite all time, completely retarded technique... (and I do this at the house every so often to amuse myself) is where you hold the gun off your body, out in front of you pointed up... and then shoulder it and bring the muzzle down on target as needed to slay bodies.

Muzzle up or muzzle down is another great discussion. Port arms especially for iron sight shooters offers many advantages. It allows the shooter to keep the FSP in his/her field of view at all times and more quickly track it out away from the body as targets present themselves. Also, many LEO's are operating in environments with concrete/pavement. An ND from a low ready is potentially as dangerous or more dangerous than one from the port arms in those cases. In the case of a 1st floor apartment complex though with civillians potentially in floors above, a muzzle down posture may be more appropriate. Shooters should become familiar with a variety of ready positions and take muzzle aversion seriously. As always, every situation will require different techniques. As long as we know why and how we are applying them we are in good shape! Thanks for commenting!

[Arctic1]

It is possible to adopt an acceptable level of recoil management with a variety of stances/grips but in general the bladed stance allows more rotational force to be applied through the hips and also creates energy transfer over the shoulder with a longer moment arm as the stock is farther from the pivot point.

I am going to have to disagree with this.

Here is a vid of me shooting a Bill Drill at 7 meters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGP1t-qn6po

Total time 1:62, splits are around 13.2, wth six shots fired in 0.79 seconds.

It shows my stance pretty well, and I blade my body slightly for a couple of reasons:

-It allows me to extend my stock and to place my support hand further forward - these two things contribute more to recoil control than body orientation, in my opinion.
-Easier to start movement

Here is another vid of me shooting a half and half drill, using the same stance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC-7Ew_V7vo

Total time is 2:03 at the 5 meter line, first shot was at 0.69. Splits are at 13.4, for ten shots in 1.34 seconds

For me, using a fighting stance, ie slightly bladed with one foot forward, and shooting stock fully extended with support arm placed forward on the handguard allows me to drive the sights to the center of target easier. On top of that comes not tensing up, ie relaxing. The traditional stance you are demonstrating in the video is not suitable for rapid shot strings, but variants thereof is used successfully for long distance target shooting.

I also do think that if the recoil of the gun is causing your upper body to rotate as the gun moves to the rear, you are having other issues than just recoil management.

I also use the same stance for FA, although that is a technique I never use. Here is a vid of me shooting the half and half using FA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1t1ZSpot-4 (10 round bursts)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLaTTJwgKwY (short controlled bursts - increases accuracy)

The gun doesn't move very much, or move me very much either. I am 5'9" and weigh 170lbs, so I don't have enourmous amounts of mass to counter recoil with; I rely on technique.

I think there are other factors that contribute more than just blading or squaring up.

[markm]

Muzzle up or muzzle down is another great discussion.

Oh.. I'm not anti muzzle up/Port arms.... I'm talking about a particularly insane technique where you're moving around with your carbine out front of you like it's a stinky diaper and you want it far away from you.