Help with shooting 25 yard groups (aiming)

[acaixguard]

Looking for some advice on this one. I have problems holding a consistent aim at 25 yards when I am testing for groups. At this point, I don't believe it to be an issue of snatching the trigger. I am getting to the point where I am pleased with how I generally shoot at 10-15 yards. While I'm not a GREAT shooter, I am decent enough to know when I snatch my shots or not.

Anyhow, my problem at 25 yards seems to be with aiming. I can generally get most shots in the black of a B-8 target at 25 yards if I do my part. However, I cannot get good consistent tight groups when I try to test for zero, even shooting off a rest. What I notice is, I lose the precise details of my front sight, and also my target. For example, let's say I am using a 6:00 hold on the black of a B-8 target. When trying to place the top of my front sight blade (aligned with the top of the rears of course) so that it just touches the bottom of 9 ring, the top of the front sight starts to get fuzzy to me, as if there's a thin layer of the top that is somewhat transparent, and I'm not sure if it's touching the bottom of the 9 ring or not. Furthermore, I can't clearly discern between the bottom of the 9 or 10 rings. Basically, I could be holding at the bottom of the 10 ring, or bottom of the 9 ring for all I know. Or even lower than that. What I think is the correct alignment varies from shot to shot. As a result, I have inconsistent fine aiming at this distance.

Even worse is when I am trying to group a tight group at 100 yards on my AR with fixed sights. Same issue with the front sight and target, and I'm not sure if I have my front post centered in the middle of the ghost ring rear.

Oh, and I do have 20/20 vision.

Hope my explanations made sense. Thanks in advance for any help!

[Coal Dragger]

Your description sounds like you are having a hard time keeping focus on the front sight, which is more common as distance increases or the target becomes smaller. It is harder to index that crisp front sight on an indistinct target. That is one reason a lot of bullseye shooters that do most of their work at 50ft, 25 yards, and 50 yards set their pistol sights for a true six o clock hold on the black portion of the target. It's easier to index the front sight that way. Same for most serious NRA high power rifle shooters. This works better than any other method for targets of known size at known distances. Not so much for unknown distance or target sizes.

You may just have to force yourself through practice focussing on the front sight even when your eyes want to make quick transitions between target and front sight. When you notice this happening stop the shot process and start over again. Just like you would if you found yourself snatching the trigger or flinching.

[SPDGG]

^ +1 "Coal Dragger" nailed it.

An older bullseye shooter once told me, "It's all in your head, just focus" . . . One of the best words of advice I received when I was younger regarding distance. . . .Front sight distance never changes with any target distance, once you hold its all front sight + trigger control for accuracy

[Savior 6]

If the center of your actual target is equidistant from the top and bottom, and the left and right, then fold your target in half one way, unfold and fold in half the other way, unfold. This not only gives you a center represented on the target, but also gives you a "pathway" to get there.

The four fundamentals of markmanship are:
1. Foundation/Body Postion (how stable you can make your body.)
2. Sight Picture (making sure your sights line up the same each time you aim.)
3. Breathing (Natural Respitory Pause is fine but breathing out completely, before your shot, is better).
4. Trigger Control/Squeeze (Independent/Singular Squeeze, touch/press, etc.; making sure you have positive control of the trigger and that you don't hestantly "pull" or "jerk" the trigger.)

As we all learn marksmanship we start with these four fundamentals and as we become better with each, we "revisit" the others.
Your revisit sounds like the Second. (fitting isn't it?- 2nd Amnd)

When aquiring your Sight Picture, go back to Simple Simon but make sure you do it the same each time.- Left/Right then Up/Down OR Up/Down then Left/Right.
-Pick a side (Left/Right) or an edge (Up/Down); go to the center of the target on that plane (lt/rt, up/dn); hold that; then, go to the center of the other plane (up/dn, lt/rt).

Example:
I have a manilla piece of paper (no printed target), 8.5x11"
I fold it in half up/down, then I unfold it.
I fold it in half left/right, Then I unfold it.
Now I have a "cross" in the center.
I put the target at my desired distance.
When I aim at that target I start at the top edge of the paper and go down half-way.
Then I go to the left side and go right half-way.
Now I should be at center.
Now I squeeeeeeeeeze off the round,
When it goes "off" I take note of that mental picture (Natural Sight Picture).
Then on my consecutive rounds I do my BEST to reinvent that same mental picture.

BTW, Slay the Dragon at 25 before worrying about the Demon at 100.

[Savior 6]

In other words:
Slow down.
Relax.
Appreciate the rise in ammo cost and.....
Squeeeeeeeeeze.
Each time.

[ptmccain]

Just for clarification...you are talking about shooting a handgun, right?

[polydeuces]

In other words:
Slow down.
Relax.
Appreciate the rise in ammo cost and.....
Squeeeeeeeeeze.
Each time.

Contemplation of #3 might make steps 1 and 2 exceedingly hard to achieve.
It usually causes spikes in excessive high blood-pressure, heart palpitations, brings about accelerated breathing and all sorts of unholy thoughts, none of which may be conducive to attaining the serene zen-like state of mind one usually achieves when firing a pistol or rifle.
Speaking for myself of course.

[Failure2Stop]

Use a 3x5 card, oriented vertically, placed in the center of a B8.
Use a 6:00 hold on the 3x5.

This provides a high contrast aiming point while focusing on the front sight. The 3" bottom edge should be very close to the width of the front sight at 25, which makes sight picture easier.

[rickmy]

I have a hard time with distance and I'm always working on 8 inch bulls at 25. I'm a firearms instructor and excel in most areas but sight alignment at distance is my Achilles heel. Less than stellar LASIK left with me with dry eye and I have bad allergies. I have found that the only thing that helps is a skinny front sight. Practically speaking, shooting at speed is never an issue. If I'm shooting for groups the longer I focus the weaker my groups are.

[acaixguard]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I never really thought of focusing properly as a learned skill in itself. I will definitely have to spend more time at the range practicing as a bullseye shooter would.
I'll definitely try the trick of using a higher contrast target too. I also have a feeling that maybe a squared aiming point may help me? I struggle with aligning the top of the squared front side blade to the bottom of a small circle.

Oh, and yes, I was talking about shooting a pistol at 25 yards. My 100 yard example was with an AR using irons. With a red dot, I don't really have this problem. I think it's because I can place a small dot on top of my target more easily (aligning the top dome of the dot onto the top of the bullseye for instance).

Thanks again!