Help with shooting 25 yard groups (aiming)

[Savior 6]

Contemplation of #3 might make steps 1 and 2 exceedingly hard to achieve.
It usually causes spikes in excessive high blood-pressure, heart palpitations, brings about accelerated breathing and all sorts of unholy thoughts, none of which may be conducive to attaining the serene zen-like state of mind one usually achieves when firing a pistol or rifle.
Speaking for myself of course.

No shit. Roger that.

[Savior 6]

Use a 3x5 card, oriented vertically, placed in the center of a B8.
Use a 6:00 hold on the 3x5.

This provides a high contrast aiming point while focusing on the front sight. The 3" bottom edge should be very close to the width of the front sight at 25, which makes sight picture easier.

EffN Nice!
Dig this "I live in the really, real world" type of info.
Marksmanship just got better.

[Savior 6]

...I'll definitely try the trick of using a higher contrast target too...

Our minds play tricks on us. Try this above, but rebut it with using same reticle/sight and same target color. I.E.- black-on black, red-on-red.
In this manner you have less chance to second guess yourself and can amazingly find a true center of target. And subsequint shots will be less affected by your mind "adjusting" your aim. Similar to, but not the same as an "open-center" reticle.

We naturally want to find center.
Exercise:
Turn your red dot off and aim quickly at a target. Then have a buddy turn the red dot on. You won't be fine-tuned but you will most likely be close to center of target. Whether you have a square box or round circle, your mind will look for center.

One range I go to constantly tries to give me a red target because I am using a black reticle. Their M.O. is to ask what type of reticle you are using as opposed to what target (color that is) you want. Fortunately for me I have an illuminated reticle (red) so I can work with whatever target they decide for me after a long conversation. Either way I will use black-on-black OR red-on-red.

[Voodoo_Man]

Use a 3x5 card, oriented vertically, placed in the center of a B8.
Use a 6:00 hold on the 3x5.

This provides a high contrast aiming point while focusing on the front sight. The 3" bottom edge should be very close to the width of the front sight at 25, which makes sight picture easier.

Sounds like cheating.

[Failure2Stop]

Our minds play tricks on us. Try this above, but rebut it with using same reticle/sight and same target color. I.E.- black-on black, red-on-red.
In this manner you have less chance to second guess yourself and can amazingly find a true center of target. And subsequint shots will be less affected by your mind "adjusting" your aim. Similar to, but not the same as an "open-center" reticle.

We naturally want to find center.
Exercise:
Turn your red dot off and aim quickly at a target. Then have a buddy turn the red dot on. You won't be fine-tuned but you will most likely be close to center of target. Whether you have a square box or round circle, your mind will look for center.

One range I go to constantly tries to give me a red target because I am using a black reticle. Their M.O. is to ask what type of reticle you are using as opposed to what target (color that is) you want. Fortunately for me I have an illuminated reticle (red) so I can work with whatever target they decide for me after a long conversation. Either way I will use black-on-black OR red-on-red.

We're talking pistol irons.

[TomD]

Try using a blank light colored target, ie, sheet of copy paper. You have no 'target' to distract your vision from the front sight. This is similar to what F2S recommended. Be interested to know your progress and hopeful solution.

[tb-av]

Something that helped me... and I still do all the wrong things though.... is go to office supply and buy a pack of those red or yellow colored dots.. they are 3/4" dots i think. Stick one in the center of your B8. If you get the other alignment stuff going it draws you to a very small spot.

Part of my problem is, due to vision and focus, I can't tell if I am indeed in the middle and that little dot of color even if I totally cover it let's me know I'm in the right place. It doesn't cure the other mistakes but when you do the other stuff correctly it seems to pull things a bit closer together near the middle. So maybe you can figure what you are doing right, when it actually does go right for you. Maybe you will remember a mental picture of the whole process.

...and sometimes my double vision even get's both front sights on the colored dot!

[Coal Dragger]

I have a hard time with distance and I'm always working on 8 inch bulls at 25. I'm a firearms instructor and excel in most areas but sight alignment at distance is my Achilles heel. Less than stellar LASIK left with me with dry eye and I have bad allergies. I have found that the only thing that helps is a skinny front sight. Practically speaking, shooting at speed is never an issue. If I'm shooting for groups the longer I focus the weaker my groups are.

This is another head game issue faced by serious bullseye shooters (I used to be serious enough about it to compete in college). Generally speaking the longer you hold the pistol out there and focus on the front sight the worse your shot will be past about the 3-5 second mark, your eyes will start to fatigue and you'll find yourself doing stupid shit like holding your breath and or not breathing smoothly. It will affect your visual acuity and therefore your results. Again as much as it sucks, once you notice this you will be best served (if you're on a one way range trying to make nice little groups) to stop, take a rest, and then start the shot process all over again with the goal of breaking your shot within 3-5 seconds of bringing the front sight into perfect focus. The other half of the equation is mental as well, and this accepting your natural arc of movement on the smaller at distance target and pressing though the trigger in a controlled manner and not trying to force the shot when you think you have a perfect sight picture.

On the plus side the payoff for all this tedious hard work and concentration will be the ability to make bullets hit targets at ranges you may have previously had trouble with, and like any other practiced skill it becomes easier with practice to get that good front sight focus, accept your arc of movement, and consistently break the shot in a short period of time before your eyes fatigue. Plus a lot of off hand accuracy work will drastically improve your natural arc of movement. At one point I was actually more accurate shooting one handed than shooting with both hands believe it or not. Through a lot of practice my dominant hand, arm, and shoulder got to the point where my arc of movement on the right side was so small that introducing my left hand actually decreased accuracy in slow fire. Plus shooting one handed bladed to the target added more length to my effective sight radius by moving the gun farther away since my shoulder added distance to the sights.

[26 Inf]

Maybe I'm way off the mark here, forgive me if I am - OP you do understand don't you that your eye(s) can not precisely focus on 2 objects (target and front sight) at the same time, don't you?

The front sight must be sharp and clear for any precise degree of accuracy. At 25 yards the B-8 bull will be a little blurry - it should be. I wasn't the best bullseye shooter in the world, but I have won a couple of matches. On the B-8 using open sights the front sight should be gently moving in the middle of the black blur - I never used 6 o'clock hold.

This is my opinion - if you are shooting for groups with open sights - which you are - you do not want anything on the target that will draw your attention to the target from the front sight.

I also warm up by shooting blank (white) targets at 50 yards - the white target drill is what really showed me what proper sight picture should be - front sight sharp and clear.

'You'll win the battle, you'll win the fight, if you keep your eye on your front sight.'

Regarding open sights on your AR:

In a proper firing position your eye should be directly in line with the center of the rear sight aperture.

When the eye looks through the aperture and focuses on the front sight post, it (the eye) naturally centers it in the aperture providing accurate sight alignment. If you are focusing on the front sight the aperture should be fuzzy, if you are conscious of the aperture at all. This is where the term 'ghost ring' comes from.

Place the tip of the front sight post on the aiming point with the eye focused on the tip of the front sight post. The target appears blurry and the front sight post should be seen clearly.

When you focus on the front sight and not the target, any aiming error is minor and reflects only as much as you error in determining the target center. A greater aiming error results if the front sight post is blurry due to focusing on the target.

Remember when using an aperture sight, focusing on the tip of the front sight post helps you maintain proper sight alignment because of your eye's ability to precisely center the front sight in the circle of the aperture.

[JiminAZ]

Coal Dragger gave you a lot of wisdom. I have a few tidbits to add:

1) Hard focus on the front sight is not enough. Hard focus on the top edge, dead center is what you want.
2) It is very hard to unravel the interaction between sight picture, trigger control, and the head games your mind invents. What I mean by this is, as Coal Dragger alluded to, you can chase or rush the shot when you think you see the perfect sight picture, or when you sense that you have an exceptionally steady moment in your hold. You won't even know you're doing it other than the fact that you're having a "bad day".
3) When I started out I really worked on sight picture. After a bit that part became more automatic and I could put about 80% of my attention into trigger control. Real accuracy improvements came from mastering trigger control and learning to accept my natural sight picture wobble.

What convinced me on #2 was an experience I had shooting at 25 yd for groups one day. A really thick bank of fog rolled in - pea soup thick. I couldn't see the target other than the orange dot in the center just barely. I figured oh well, mentally sort of relaxed and just slowfired the mag at the dot with easy trigger pulls while holding alignment. Probably shot the whole mag in 20 seconds or so. I ended up with one of the tightest groups I've ever shot.

Had the same thing happen when shooting in a wooded remote location in Alaska. Had a target up on a stump, it fell and slipped down behind some foliage. I shot through the leaves at the barely visible orange spec. Group was silly tight.

The visual/motor control/feedback loop between your eyes and hands is hard to master. Very hard.

Once in an LAV class he had us intentionally wobble our sights in a 1" circle around the bull, pulling the trigger as best we could while wobbling. Groups were still tight. It is very hard to learn to accept your wobble and just shoot.