Shotgun for HD: Heresy?

[Koshinn]

Did we really have to go there? Only four sub-forums are AR specific, shall we do away with all the rest just for you?

It's like buying playboy only for the articles. Sure you could... But you're missing the point.

[Ice_Pick]

Originally Posted by ptmccain
26 Inf, I leave the action open, ready to "combat load" a slug, or whatever, and I'll have six in my mag tube afterwards. Your method would appear to take a tad more work



I've been thinking about this since you posted it and now believe maybe I wasn't direct enough. I don't understand how you do that - on any pump action shotgun that I've serviced or trained with, the action is cocked by bring the action to the rear, therefore if the action is open, the hammer is not down in the normal parlance.

Additionally, most shotguns are made to be loaded with the action closed, aside from models such as the Benelli Nova. If you bring the action to the rear another round will be feed onto the shell carrier. While it easy to remove the shell from the receiver, neither the Remington or Mossberg is designed to be magazine loaded with the action open. With the Remington, you have to really aim the shell into the tube, with the Mossberg you have the shell carrier in the way, it will not pivot out of the way as the Remington does. I have never explored loading a round into the Mossberg's mag tube through the receiver over the shell carrier; nor have I worked with the Mossberg on closing the action just enough to raise the shell carrier to load an additional shell into the tube. On the Remington you could also stick your thumb or finger up into the loading port, press in and prevent the shell from feeding as you brought the action to the rear.

All of these actions are not IAW the 'normal' manual of arms with any of these shotguns, so it is not as simple as you made it out to be.

I began my career in training .mil personnel in shotgun usage in 1975 while the training NCO for a Marine Barracks who was tasked with teaching pistol, M-14 (new boots had trained on the M16) and shotgun; I attended my first LE course in 1980 and in the ensuing 35 years became the primary shotgun instructor at our Academy. During that time I've attended numerous LE specific shotgun courses (instructor level). I run several thousand rounds a year through shotguns, about a quarter of it buck and slug.

I've never heard anyone doing what you describe, but I'm open to learn.

I think he means that with a full mag-tube, and an empty chamber, with the action open... he can "combat-reload" through the ejection port with a slug if needed, or simply double-rack the action to grab the first round out of the tube.
I've always understood this to be commonly called "crusier-ready"

I think the confusing part, is when he said "hammer down" which, you are correct, isn't possible with a pump , if the action is open (at least not one I've ever seen). Although you would probably have a dead trigger... which I suppose could be misinterpreted as a hammer-down condition...

In any case, his method would get the slug into the chamber faster, assuming the slug was easily at hand. (I can port-load quicker than I can tube load and stroke) It mostly comes down to wanting it to be laying around with a round in the chamber or not... Depending on the family/household situation, it may be safer.

[ptmccain]

I think he means that with a full mag-tube, and an empty chamber, with the action open... he can "combat-reload" through the ejection port with a slug if needed, or simply double-rack the action to grab the first round out of the tube.
I've always understood this to be commonly called "crusier-ready"

I think the confusing part, is when he said "hammer down" which, you are correct, isn't possible with a pump , if the action is open (at least not one I've ever seen). Although you would probably have a dead trigger... which I suppose could be misinterpreted as a hammer-down condition...

In any case, his method would get the slug into the chamber faster, assuming the slug was easily at hand. (I can port-load quicker than I can tube load and stroke) It mostly comes down to wanting it to be laying around with a round in the chamber or not... Depending on the family/household situation, it may be safer.

Correct, this is what I'm talking about. I do this for safety and for the option of getting a slug in first.

I do not subscribe to the "scare them away with racking a round into a shotgun" theory.

[26 Inf]

I think he means that with a full mag-tube, and an empty chamber, with the action open... he can "combat-reload" through the ejection port with a slug if needed, or simply double-rack the action to grab the first round out of the tube.
I've always understood this to be commonly called "crusier-ready"

I think the confusing part, is when he said "hammer down" which, you are correct, isn't possible with a pump , if the action is open (at least not one I've ever seen). Although you would probably have a dead trigger... which I suppose could be misinterpreted as a hammer-down condition...

In any case, his method would get the slug into the chamber faster, assuming the slug was easily at hand. (I can port-load quicker than I can tube load and stroke) It mostly comes down to wanting it to be laying around with a round in the chamber or not... Depending on the family/household situation, it may be safer.

Cruiser ready as most do it: mag tube loaded, chamber empty, action locked, safety engaged (or disengaged).

Some folks do it: mag tube loaded, action unlocked (hammer dropped on an empty chamber), safety disengaged.

There is not a 'universal' way to do it. Perhaps we need to verify 'action open' because in any common pump action shotgun, if the mag tube is loaded and you bring the action to the rear, a round will feed from the mag tube. You then have to remove it from the receiver. This leaves you with a less than full mag tube. He stated mag tube full.

If the action is unlocked and closed and you bring the action to the rear, a round feeds onto the shell lift/carrier and if you combat load a slug on top of it the action won't close.

In that case the select-slug drill is: action to the rear, roll the weapon to the side allowing the fed round to fall from the receiver and combat load the slug.

This is the reason that most LE users that have slugs available leave an open spot in the mag tube after they chamber a round, it gives them the option of shoving a slug into the mag tube and chambering the slug while cycling the action.

On the clock, starting with the slug in the carrier (sidesaddle, butt mounted, belt holder), most officers are quicker getting the slug and shoving it into the mag tube, cycling and firing than they are in getting the slug, bringing the action to the rear, rolling the buck out of the receiver, combat loading the slug and firing.

Granted, this is not the same situation that he described, it is just how LE is trained to accomplish the task. Maybe he should make a video on how he does it, because, unless he is going through all the gymnastics I outlined in post #70, I'm throwing the BS flag.

[DWood]

Originally Posted by ptmccain
26 Inf, I leave the action open, ready to "combat load" a slug, or whatever, and I'll have six in my mag tube afterwards. Your method would appear to take a tad more work



I've been thinking about this since you posted it and now believe maybe I wasn't direct enough. I don't understand how you do that - on any pump action shotgun that I've serviced or trained with, the action is cocked by bring the action to the rear, therefore if the action is open, the hammer is not down in the normal parlance.
......................... While it easy to remove the shell from the receiver, neither the Remington or Mossberg is designed to be magazine loaded with the action open. With the Remington, you have to really aim the shell into the tube, with the Mossberg you have the shell carrier in the way, it will not pivot out of the way as the Remington does. I have never explored loading a round into the Mossberg's mag tube through the receiver over the shell carrier; nor have I worked with the Mossberg on closing the action just enough to raise the shell carrier to load an additional shell into the tube. On the Remington you could also stick your thumb or finger up into the loading port, press in and prevent the shell from feeding as you brought the action to the rear.

All of these actions are not IAW the 'normal' manual of arms with any of these shotguns, so it is not as simple as you made it out to be..........................
I've never heard anyone doing what you describe, but I'm open to learn.

Like you, I was curious and I am also open to learning. I tried it and found out very quickly that loading the 870 magazine with the action open is very difficult, as you described. The only way I could see to do this easily would be to fully load the tube, open the action (and leave it open), remove the shell that dropped onto the carrier and load that last single round back into the tube (which is not easy).

I see no benefit to this method, and actually would recommend against it. Besides leaving the action open for possible contamination with dust (or who knows what to possibly jamb the action), as well as leaving the hammer cocked, this method REQUIRES a shell to be manually loaded through the port as an initial action. As you pointed out, the OPs recommendation is not a standard in the operation of a pump shotgun.

Since an 870 is a gun I would go for in the middle of the night, relearning a manual of arms that goes against the way I have shot pump guns for many years is a NO GO for me. With this method, running the action forward without port loading leaves the chamber empty. I see this as being different from combat loading once the gun runs dry, but that's just me. When I deploy my loaded gun and I run the slide forward, I want it to chamber a round without thinking about it. Under stress, I think it would be very easy to run the slide without port loading and end up with an empty chamber. "Double pumping" requires pressing the slide release to run the slide again. Adding the need to think about running the gun and a fine motor skill like finding the slide release when deploying the shotgun is not good IMO.

Since this gun is for my home, I am fully confident that a first round of 00 buck flite control wad ammo is the correct choice and don't forsee that I will ever need a slug as the first round. IF I need a slug, it will not be until the threat is assessed. Inside my house, 00 rules. If for some unlikely reason I were to exit the home, I have time to chamber a slug.

Obviously, to each his own, but I believe this is a bad recommendation for the average individual who may choose a pump as a go to HD gun.

[Grizzly16]

Correct, this is what I'm talking about. I do this for safety and for the option of getting a slug in first.

I do not subscribe to the "scare them away with racking a round into a shotgun" theory.

What criteria do you use to determine Slug vs Buck shot?

[SpyderMan2k4]

I can't help but think the pros of that method don't outweigh the cons. Leaving the action open and empty to allow "faster" loading of a slug implies a sense of urgency (because in the event a slug is needed right off the bat, too much time would be spent doing a standard slug changeover.)

I think if there is that much urgency in getting the gun in the fight, I'd rather get it on the fight immediately, even with buck shot, even if a slug would be better, and change over when opportunity allowed. But that's just me.

[JusticeM4]

Slugs for HD? Sounds serious...

[bzdog]

What criteria do you use to determine Slug vs Buck shot?

(hardened) slugs for shooting through barriers, #1 buck with Flite Control wad otherwise.

-john

[Leaveammoforme]

Slugs for HD? Sounds serious...

What criteria do you use to determine Slug vs Buck shot?

When the RO or MD gives the stage briefing, duh. Then you just repeat it in your head. For example: Slug, slug, buck, buck ,buck, slug, ninja roll, buck, buck, buck, buck.

On a serious note, The only time I would ever port load a shotgun is if the magazine was empty. That gets the shotgun up and running then you load or top off mag as time and cover permit. I personally see no use for slugs in a HD situation. I would not be chasing someone with a shotgun in my boxers while fumbling 2 different types of ammo. I also see a shotgun as a defensive weapon. I will not be on offense with it. If all you have is a shotgun, don't trick yourself into thinking you are gonna shoot an engine block 75 yards away as they speed away with your blender. A shotgun is like any other weapon on a empty chamber, worthless unless you have the element of surprise and cool nerves.