50 yard accuracy frustration

[kevN]

Uhg, I'm officially on the ptmcain "ban" wagon. Almost all of the active threads have devolved into him vs everyone and I don't even think his Navy SEAL friends could rescue his sinking ship here.


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[C4IGrant]

We keep hearing people counsel people like the OP to aim for accurate and fast hits, offhand, on a 3x5 card from 50 yards. I'd really like to see those giving this advice demonstrate their proficiency at doing that.

Any videos we could watch to see this demonstrated? I've seen several of my former US NAVY SEAL instructors do it, using only iron sights mind you. But they had unlimited ammo and shot literally from dawn to dark for weeks on end before deployments to ramp up to this kind of accuracy, shooting, 40,000 rounds of 9mm and 5.56

My premise, without evidence to the contrary posted, is that this sounds great in theory, but few have the time and ammo resources to actually perfect plugging holes in a paper 3x5 card at 50 yards consistently, from an offhand position.

Any takers? I would love to be proven wrong here.

Sure (just did it this weekend at Pat's TAPS class. Hell, I shot a 3X5 card group with my PISTOL at 20yds). One should be able to make head shots STANDING (4X4 box) and head shots prone at 100yds.

So no, it doesn't take 40K and months on end to do. With that said, not everyone is as gifted as others when it comes to shooting. Eyesight, ammo, optic, etc all come into play.





C4

[GTF425]

I know he asked for advice, I'm simply asking those telling the OP to punch holes in a 3x5 card at 50 yards quickly and accurately to put up some proof they can do it. My point is that achieving and maintaining such proficiency is probably out of reach for the vast majority of us who are not in a position to spend dawn-to-dusk time at the range and have, literally, unlimited ammo and equipment. I know from personal experience and observation that well skilled former US NAVY SEALs who maintain their skills can do it.

I may be wrong, but ... I'd like to see the proof.

You just don't get it. I'm normally a patient guy, but I'm gonna have to be direct on this one.

Training is the process of both cultivating a mindset that combines focus, discipline, and aggression with a set of technical skills to improve your ability to perform a specific task. That's basic ADP 7-0 shit if you want to get technical about it.

Telling someone to compromise an accuracy standard because it's "realistic" (which, by the way, makes no sense...you're not hitting where you're aiming) is not only limiting their capacity to develop and improve as a shooter, but it's setting yourself up for failure in regards to possessing a combat mindset. Nothing is ever good enough...you shouldn't train for a specific outcome (ie shooting 3x5 cards), you should train to improve your overall performance. Test your current level of proficiency, develop a training plan to improve on your weaknesses, and work at it. Don't just go through the motions and perform your "Range Katas" and pat yourself on the back. If you can't shoot to the mechanical accuracy of your firearm and ammunition combo, then find out why and work towards improving yourself. It's a never ending process.

As to your attempt to call dudes out and post vids of ourselves...well, given I'm across the world right now, not gonna happen since I'm a little busy walking around doing stuff. But you're more than welcome to join me when I get back to Bragg if you doubt my ability to do anything in my previous posts.

Also, please answer my question about what your credentials are in LEO/MIL to be giving people advice on what is or is not acceptable accuracy in combat. It can be simple, like this:

US Army
Airborne Infantry Rifle Squad Leader
31 months (and counting) deployed, OEF Afghanistan

Which can be easily supported by e-mailing my ERB if anyone felt so inclined to want to verify the above. But if you don't possess those credentials, then don't tell someone about something you don't understand. It doesn't matter what anecdotal knowledge you've filtered from some second hand sources...I want to know if what's coming from the tap is good to drink.

YMMV, just my $.02, other cliche post closure.

[mark5pt56]

This, some get tied up with the speed aspect from the start and never hone the fundementals. Speed will come, learn your limits and understand that we all have different lanes to travel in. As someone once and still states-your sight are your speedometer. What I've learned through the years that works for me is that I'm no where near the fastest, but I'm consistent and minimize errors.

This is poor advice at best. You must first establish the fundamentals. This means no time limit, solely working on group size from at least 4 different positions. Then, when you are shooting the best group size YOU can, start adding time standards.

Through slow repetition, you will naturally increase your speed.


Everyones shots open up during any kind of stress (naturally) so if you cannot shoot little groups with no stress, you will never do it when needed.

One of my favorite quotes from an ex-Tier1 guy seems fitting for this discussion: "No one will ever have to tell you to shoot faster in a gun fight."


C4

[MegademiC]

One thing that really helped my pistol shooting was to stop trying too hard to go fast. I kept snapping the gun to the target and chasing the dot around, all tensed up. Once I got a shot timer, it took one range trip to find that what felt slow was much faster. Focus on movement efficiency, and accuracy, and the timer will show the speed results.

For me, speed is natural-I want to go fast, I just have to focus to slow myself down and maintain accuracy. Once that improves, my times go down.

Try bringing the gun on target smoothly, with no jerky movements and see how much slower you times are (for a given accuracy). I'd bet its not as slow as you think.

I don't know if this helps or not, just thought I'd add a perspective to think about.